tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-60192090350013894122024-03-19T03:35:53.792-07:00Haphazard thoughts of a godless gamerHarkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-2425054147872482022014-04-17T06:38:00.001-07:002014-04-17T06:40:30.256-07:00Some days man...<span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5em;">"I am tired of </span><a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Earth" style="background-color: white; background-image: none; color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5em; text-decoration: none;" title="Earth">Earth</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5em;">, these</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5em;"> </span><a class="mw-redirect" href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/People" style="background-color: white; background-image: none; color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5em; text-decoration: none;" title="People">people</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5em;">. I'm tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives." - Dr Manhattan</span><br />
<span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;"><b>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATDmVbHIQ7E</b></span>Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-88404599379669936382014-03-11T18:57:00.001-07:002014-03-11T18:57:09.221-07:00Walpurgis NightI wonder if my strong feelings about Madoka Magica are not another reflection of the same themes that draw me to Persona 3.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhHOMEhmLfDHpuXoZPFijcAA1nzOTzdYvu00jXtStqaHQgBGFBUpu1aVfcex6GN0yapECDHMS4KigkUbyn3ph3ZlOdQSshGswUbeq8Rr1W-Q0dJmqThRDNhlS4odUfusup0oL8q5JW03GQ/s1600/535056-walpurgis_night_main_image.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhHOMEhmLfDHpuXoZPFijcAA1nzOTzdYvu00jXtStqaHQgBGFBUpu1aVfcex6GN0yapECDHMS4KigkUbyn3ph3ZlOdQSshGswUbeq8Rr1W-Q0dJmqThRDNhlS4odUfusup0oL8q5JW03GQ/s1600/535056-walpurgis_night_main_image.jpg" height="180" width="320" /></a></div>
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Madoka Magica another story with strong themes of the inevitability of defeat a large grinning monster towering over the protagonists. No matter what is throw its way it keeps on coming. The protagonist forced to rise again and again to face it but never defeating it. The smiling face starring down, it has no need for fear, or anger its going to win it can not be stopped and it knows this.<br />
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Yet all the while the protagonist fights on again and again looking for some final way to defeat it despite the ever increasing sense that there is no way out. But they keep on going, and that's something I'd admire in them, and want in myself.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-31746570090170885142014-03-10T17:54:00.002-07:002014-03-10T19:48:03.980-07:00It seems timely ....To all the other Triss Merigold's out there bless us all.<br />
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A single sentence I toyed with but left in draft form a few weeks back.... why not post it now<br />
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Maybe someday we'll stop playing with fire...Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-82709855632876756682014-03-10T17:54:00.001-07:002014-03-10T17:54:06.628-07:00Reflections on persona 3.<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjJ3pc2n9ICFC0L2-WCwLAZZOkavtAwKxRwwe2uqec3h-oNs4b_XkBjsJoBu6bRcBNp5kgLuALR5G7TEs0H15081oh6qiyzWyr9X3vJO-4psF0xGbiI0dMNEXuVPyjwqwBA-O8bAtLAl4A/s1600/persona_2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjJ3pc2n9ICFC0L2-WCwLAZZOkavtAwKxRwwe2uqec3h-oNs4b_XkBjsJoBu6bRcBNp5kgLuALR5G7TEs0H15081oh6qiyzWyr9X3vJO-4psF0xGbiI0dMNEXuVPyjwqwBA-O8bAtLAl4A/s1600/persona_2.jpg" height="246" width="320" /></a>Persona 3 is easily one of my favourite games of all due in no small part to persistent themes and symbolism of death, dread, the tower card in tarot and perhaps most importantly the choices we make in the face of these things.<br />
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I've heard from more then one friend that I always come of as possitive. I'm enthusiastic and optimistic while other people are freaking and worrying I'm taking it all with a grin and coming out on top. Much like the title of the game my outward appearence is just a persona while not a lie its not the whole truth either. Its a mask that doesn't hide my face but obscures it and to some extent protects it.<br />
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Through out persona 3 the main characters deal with a series of increasingly dark themes. People around town being dried of energy and deisre, a so called apathy syndrom leaving them bleak and lifeless. Stories of individual loss both of friends and in the lives of people they meet, divorces, failed relationships abound. Further more the specter of death literally haunts the game. A powerful monster thanatos stalking the party through the dungeons, and the growing presence of Nyx the final boss of the game. Nyx a black winged elegantly crafted monster wearing the porceline face of a former friend grinning down on the party in the final encounter. Unstopable, unkillable an ever looming threat, through the course of a grewling 14 stage battle each defeat yielding only a new form and a continuation of the fight. Its grinning face never changing as you combat each stage.<br />
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It seems an apt face for my troubles, always looming in one form or another even in the best of times, strikeing mostly at night, the midnight hour the time in the game when the monsters appear. It brings me low beats me down and I struggle and fight to vanquish it. It goes away but never for long, hours, days, weeks and its back, the black looming monstrosity grinning down at me. Knowing all too well that my victory was fleeting it is back again a new form, a new shape a new struggle, as I muster the energy to push it back again.<br />
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True to all predictions Nyx can't be killed. The after 14 stages it unleashes waves of energy crushing the player and their friends to the ground. The party unable to rise as wave after wave flow over them. It is only through the power of his social links, the friendships and people he's come to know that the protaganist can rise off the ground an vanquish Nyx. But it is not killed, no it takes all the energy the protagonist has to seal it away, unable to harm the world for a time as the main character slips away and dies with his friends a few months later. There is something... comforting in such an end. I've long found the heroic sacrifice of the main character strikes a deep chord with me. A meaningful death...<br />
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And so to some extent is is with me the night falls the walls close in my mood drops and I fight and struggle to regain myself but my foe is never truly gone always returning but I rise again and again to meet them. I sometimes find it scary how helpful my friends are. They are a great source of my optimism, enthusiasm and energy, my ability to rise and struggle against my dark moods. I fear my times away, my journey's home, how i will manage without them for days on end, no one to see or talk to, to joke and play and head off on simple adventures with. And yet I always manage and I go on, much like the protagonist I choose not to hide from it but rise again and again to face my foe. Always know they'll be back as I push them from my mind again and again. Maybe it's something about this central struggle that has had such a lasting impression on me, but I know I'll climb the dark tower of Tartarus again some day, and battle Nyx to the battle for everyone's souls....Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-31293223503077665532013-12-17T09:07:00.000-08:002013-12-17T09:07:45.955-08:00Cranky news linksWeee good day for cranky news stories.<br />
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Some nice cranky news stories on subjects I like. Vitamins generally a big scam unless you are suffereing from a serious condition, scurvy, osteoporosis chronic wasteing etc.<br />
<a href="http://www.alternet.org/vitamin-industry-scam-says-medical-journal-annals-internal-medicine">http://www.alternet.org/vitamin-industry-scam-says-medical-journal-annals-internal-medicine</a><br />
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For all the conspiracy theories around big pharma, (justified and not) very few people seem to think the same way about "natural" health remedies or vitamines and all the money in their industry.<br />
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Another product sold without much real evidence of effectiveness antibacterial soap.<br />
<a href="http://io9.com/theres-no-evidence-antibacterial-soap-is-more-effectiv-1484817036">http://io9.com/theres-no-evidence-antibacterial-soap-is-more-effectiv-1484817036</a><br />
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Not to mention possible harm.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-59565690722899539652013-11-10T15:29:00.001-08:002013-11-10T15:29:30.059-08:00Found kittensPictures of the kittens we found at the cottage this past weekend.<br />
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<br />Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-6354619016075416132013-09-02T17:00:00.002-07:002013-09-02T17:00:54.843-07:00Dorm room photos<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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Assorted dorm room photos starting on roomie's side then over the kitchen and my side.<img border="0" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgVa33g9tyJM1be7W1rzBPT2gfOXfu26Xin77BnD-WCiqFjyB7dU5R1LQdtzfiD8LFSebZipYmXoSGlN_WiQfvowSl_h0fYgsujwHZEuPxEctrDjwcYBNrHBpoLEeonQmthLHQmPOLcc7A/s320/CAM00034.jpg" width="320" /></div>
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<br />Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-35547566263277781812013-09-02T16:44:00.002-07:002013-09-02T16:44:51.031-07:00Walk along the water today.<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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A few photos from my walk along the kingston water front.</div>
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The new psychiatric hospital near the campus.<br />
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I can't remember the name of this island but its not far away and its covered in wind generators. <br />
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Photo of the old psychiatric hospital near the new one.<br />
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Kingston Penitentiary on the other side of the olympic marina.<br />
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View of my college from across the athletics field on my ay back to the dorms.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-26586208882369422013-08-31T17:09:00.002-07:002013-08-31T17:09:45.349-07:00Monarch hunt today.<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<span id="goog_733777625"> </span><span id="goog_733777625">Well caterpillar hunting was a bust but I did find some frogs, bunnies, beetle sex and a mantis! </span></div>
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Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-78083889018991549742013-05-12T15:18:00.000-07:002013-05-12T15:19:30.502-07:00Skeptical Hypocrisy<br />
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Ok so Jamy Ian Swiss's latest talk has been making the round and I eventually broke down to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyLULErf_6E&list=HL1368390306">watch it</a>.<br />
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I'm not going to discuss the whole video but I do want to point out one bit of hypocrisy that we see from skeptics.<br />
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In the defense of religious skeptics Swiss brings up the idea that skepticism is about the method not the destination. It doesn't matter what you believe so much as the reasoning you used to get there. While I think I care a bit more about the end beliefs then Swiss does (Beliefs ultimately affect ones actions) I don't really have a problem with this. I don't have a problem with homeopaths, or religious people or in general skeptics who have beliefs I find ludicrously unsupported in skepticism and I don't think we can always expect everyone to be a perfect skeptic on everything or to share all our views. Having set up this fairly reasonable goal of judging thinking not conclusions can Swiss stick to it for the whole 60min lecture.<br />
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Well no.<br />
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The problem comes at the end of the lecture when he's defending his idea that skeptics and atheists are different things and different movements. To do this we get two examples: Bill Maher and an unnamed woman at an atheist meet up he organised over the american pledge in schools.<br />
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<i>44:30 With Bill Maher Swiss has this to say: "Just as there are plenty of good atheists who are in fact not skeptics at all. But in fact what I would dub faith based atheists who have not come to atheism through a grounding in the scientific world view. These atheists are of no value to the skeptical movement and indeed can sometimes be our opponents. Bill Maher was given an award by the Richard Dawkins foundation. FUCK BILL MAHER. Bill Maher was given an award by the Richard Dawkins foundation but Bill Maher is an outspoken anti vaxxer. He is anything but a skeptic and he`s far from an isolated example."</i><br />
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Note that in discussing Bill Maher and what makes him not a skeptic we are only given his conclusions and that he is outspoken about them not. We are not given any thing on his reasoning or his thinking or how he arrived at his anti vaccination stance. This comes not even 5 minutes after the latest repeating of the idea that "So the skeptical movement is about how to think about testable claims." The process not the conclusion is what matters we're told until it comes time to bash someone.<br />
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Now maybe you want to defend Swiss saying well everyone has heard of Bill Maher and knows his reasons and thinking are sloppy. First I`d say then you still should have focused on his reasons for anyone not in the loop. Then that leads me to Swiss's other example of an unskeptical atheist.<br />
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<i>46 min an anecdote about a woman at a meetup: "So umm she (his wife) decides she's going to organize an atheist parenting meetup group and because I've been an activist for many years I say you know you call it atheist you may actually not get the demographic that you're looking for exactly. OK you might be surprised about that but at the same time we were all worked up about the whole god thing coming into the house so ok we'll call it atheist *growls*. Sure enough we go to the first meet up atheist parenting meeting and this woman turns to me and says "So what's your sign? *groans from the audience* So a year or so ago I'm at dinner with Candice, myself, Richard Dawkins, Shawn Faircloth and robin hawk and Candice is telling this story. So she finishes the story and Richard looks across the table and says that did not happen. Yes it did! But that's that oh well its down but that's those atheist that are outside skeptics and humanists."</i><br />
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Now I'm going to completely ignore the non sequitur that this woman is somehow not a humanist and assume Swiss simply meant an atheist not in the skeptic-atheist overlap. In this case we know even less about the woman then Maher. Here we have a woman who initiated a conversation about astrology with Swiss and that makes her not a skeptic. It's fairly reasonable to assume she believed in astrology but really we could be mistaken on that. We know nothing about her other beliefs or what other activism work she may have done. Maybe she was a completely new age infused woo woo atheist non skeptic. Maybe she was a staunch defender of science based medicine, well versed in the skeptical explanations for spiritualism and ghosts, and frequently argued against cryptozoology and on top of all this believed in astrology for some personal reasons. We don't know.<br />
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Just like Maher again all that is given is that they believe (concluded) something mainstream skeptics have concluded is bunk. Nothing about their thought processes or motivations or reasoning is given or needed. You're an antivaxxer or an follow an astrologer well the litmus test says you're not a skeptic case closed. Here we see the hypocrisy the actions that Swiss and other skeptics use all the time in denouncing people for their irrational conclusions is called off the table for peoples religious conclusions Both reactions from the same person in one hour long lecture.<br />
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Now if you want to focus on peoples thoughts and not their conclusions as Swiss claims at the start of his lecture I'm fine with that. If you want to use the conclusions people have made as a litmus test of skepticism as you have shown you practice, it's sloppy and kind of a jerk thing to do but, that's also fine. But you have to actually make up your mind on which game you're playing and stick with it otherwise it's just more special privileges to religion and general skeptical hypocrisy.<br />
<br />Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-45388947276679147292013-03-11T12:16:00.001-07:002013-03-11T12:16:48.649-07:00Star trek stop doing this.....So I've been watching some star trek lately and something keeps bugging me. In both shore leave and this side of paradise we have planets with plants but no animals. This I could almost buy into except we have flowering plants. This is at least brought up by spock in tSoP but no one seems at all surprised by it in shore leave. Flowering plants use insects to spread their pollen and reproduce. So in a world with no animal or insect life it makes no sense for flowering plants to have evolved. If you're writing science fiction on your own try to think through the implications of your world building choices.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-16086582817623540672013-02-21T18:23:00.001-08:002013-02-21T18:23:15.959-08:00I feel unwelcome in skepticism :)I don't feel welcome in skepticism anymore. (this is a bit of a rant but I just want to let it out)<br />
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The whole movement seems more and more inflexible. Unwilling to address important issues and topics under the cover of politics and trying to keep people happy. Oh we can discuss any empirical matter they say. For example they say we can say that the evidence shows that gay parents can raise kids as well as straight parents but wouldn't make a leap to say gay and straight adults have equal rights to be parents. No we can't take that stand for what is right or moral or make any extensions beyond the facts to what should be done. Unless its a position I care about that is. Then skepticism should promote vaccination and campaign to tackle climate change. But try to make the life of one down trodden women, black, gay or trans individual better and it's gone to far.<br />
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What should be a progressive movement, a movement of political and social change of using science, reason, evidence and doubt to make the world better and try to affect positive change given our best understanding of the world is instead small and insular. Conservative and unwilling to affect change even in its own boarders to make things better for people. It's become a bludgeon to support existing views rather then a tool to evaluate those views. Large voices in the movement use skepticism as a shroud to cover the tortured logic and are unable to even listen to criticism of their views.<br />
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None of these views seem particularly welcome or desired by the leaders of the movement. Though I will always keep many of the same values, as time goes on and the more I read the less I want anything to do with organised skepticism.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-72017330528237728392013-02-21T06:56:00.001-08:002013-02-21T07:51:40.602-08:00How stats work.As a minor point in <span style="font-family: inherit;">a recent blog post<a href="http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/being_over_it-and_the_lack_of_charity/P50/"> Ben</a></span><a href="http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/being_over_it-and_the_lack_of_charity/P50/"> Radford</a> included this remark.<br />
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 17.28125px;"><i><span style="background-color: white;">"Except that I didn't; Myers misread it. I actually didn't write the "one billion" figure that Myers misquotes me as saying; that was Ensler's number. What I actually wrote (check it yourself) was that "one-third of women [have been victims of] homicide, intimate partner abuse, psychological abuse, dating violence, same-sex violence, elder abuse, sexual assault, date rape, acquaintance rape, marital rape, stranger rape and economic abuse." </span><span style="background-color: yellow;">(One in three women is not the same as one billion if you do the math, though perhaps that's just my hyperskepticism.</span><span style="background-color: white;">)"</span></i></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 17.28125px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: inherit;">Seeing as it was an easy calculation I followed this up in the comments section with a quick back of the envelope calculation.</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 17.28125px;">7billion people on earth x 1/2 women X 1/3 facing these abuses = 1.16 billion women</span></span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 17.28125px;">The math was simple 7/6 or 3.5/3 or about 1. So I'm really not sure where Ben got the idea that 1/3 wasn't 1 billion. So I left in the comments got no reply no correction was made and the comments ( including some by Radford) ignored it. OK fine it was there for anyone to see. I wake up this morning and Michael Kingsford Gray has responded to my calculation.</span></span></span><br />
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Lucida Grande, Verdana, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 17.28125px;">"</span></span><span style="color: #666666; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4em;">#13 Michaeld:</span></i><br />
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">~ 1/2 are women.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Not true at all, unless your definition of “women” strangely includes female infants.<br />2/10. Must try harder at arithmetic."</i></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This wouldn't be a problem with my math this would be a problem with what statistics or base assumptions I used. The math works given the assumptions. Then further down</span></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"<span style="line-height: 1.4em;">#49 Amphigorey</span></i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">You realize that infants get abused, too?</i></div>
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<i><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Yes, rather oddly, I do!</span><br /><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">But utterly irrelevant to the blanket categorisation of infants as “women”. An error that you have just amplified.</span><br /><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">For reasons that observers can only guess at.</span></i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">The poster made an error.<br />They included “infants” in the category of “women”.<br />Is it not that hard to admit that?"</i></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /><br />Is it not that hard to admit that? Well yeah. I'm not going to use your 2/10 or factored 1/5 statistic and here's why, it's apples and oranges. I don't know why I'm always stuck being the one to look things up but here's what you have to do. <br /><br /><br />If you want to criticize my ratio for women the first step is to find the source of the 1/3 stat and then see how they defined women. If you don't use the same definition then you might as well throw that stat out. There is nothing to say that there is a proportionality to that 1/3 stat (ie girls under 14 might account for 3/4 or 1/10 of that stat) so you can't modify it after the fact you have to go find the new statistic for your new definition of women. OK so where did that the 1/3 statistic come from. To google. This <a href="http://www.unifem.org/attachments/gender_issues/violence_against_women/facts_figures_violence_against_women_2007.pdf">unifem fact sheet</a> sites a report to the <a href="http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/violenceagainstwomenstudydoc.pdf">UN entitled </a><a href="http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/violenceagainstwomenstudydoc.pdf">In-depth study on all forms of violence against women </a><a href="http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/violenceagainstwomenstudydoc.pdf">Report of the Secretary-General 2006</a>. Another quick google and we have that report. Now in order to make sure the same definition of women is used in the 1/3 and 1/2 stats we have to check the methodology section.<br /><br /><br /> If my assumption of the definition of women was wrong MKG may well have had a point. Unfortunately page 12 paragraph 20 includes this comment "The term “women” is used to cover females of all ages, including girls under the age of 18." Then just for added measure you can look up the global gender ratio and its estimated at about females to males <a href="http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-08-17/india/29895810_1_ratio-abortion-and-craze-craze-for-male-child">984:1000</a> or 984/(984+1000)= 0.495 rounded 1/2. Thus it makes no sense to use a different stat for women then the original paper does. It would be like doing half your calculation in imperial units and half in SI units you get an answer but it doesn't necessarily mean anything useful cause you didn't keep your variables straight. In fact its even worse because at least those normal units have simple conversions these statistics do not.<br /><br /><br />So please don't tell me I can't do math when I bit of research shows you don't understand how to use statistics.</span>Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-92106665539421157922013-02-01T13:08:00.001-08:002013-02-21T07:52:34.704-08:00then again...I've been directed to Richard Carrier's definition of the supernatural.<br />
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http://richardcarrier.blogspot.ca/2007/01/defining-supernatural.html<br />
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Essentially natural has all minds contingent on matter and supernatural has non contingent minds. I'm not sure that such a ... redefinition(?) is worth doing on the muddled concepts of natural and supernatural but it is a big improvement over more colloquial usage and definition of the distinction. Something to continue thinking about anyway.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-7995103301254662982013-02-01T10:50:00.001-08:002013-02-21T07:52:18.090-08:00God did it! Methodological Naturalism and answers to questions.<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAjiQ4_4Jam2dq1KtpebpsfYVb1BcXDilW3C5wc8AXshqcoJqZsCotY97F1JSf7YAfJs8HMw2WK3gWoaeZwIMaw5CfCgpXznpy2hv4zcycrJndSDYxoHDK-vKeyNcdHsN3DATqthF9FtQ/s1600/CosmicSkyBunny.png" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="288" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhAjiQ4_4Jam2dq1KtpebpsfYVb1BcXDilW3C5wc8AXshqcoJqZsCotY97F1JSf7YAfJs8HMw2WK3gWoaeZwIMaw5CfCgpXznpy2hv4zcycrJndSDYxoHDK-vKeyNcdHsN3DATqthF9FtQ/s320/CosmicSkyBunny.png" width="320" /></a>Question: why x?<br />
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Answer: God did it.<br />
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To me there's nothing (well in principle) nothing wrong with this answer. If you look out at a garden where all the tulip bulbs have been dug up and ask: What happend here? Someone can answer squirrels did it. This could very well be the answer in general terms. Similarly I have no problem with God did it in principle as a general terms answer to a question. The problem occures right after when the answer is hollowed up.<br />
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Why? How?<br />
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With the squirrels this is easy. Squirrels are rodents and need to search for what food they can find often in the form of seeds so that they can power their bodies and survive. They dug up the bulbs using their clawed paws which have been adapted through natural selection to be good and both climbing and diging in soft soil. You can continue with more follow up questions: why seeds? Why do they need food for energy? How do they get energy from foods? Why do squirrels fill this niche? How do their paws work as tools in digging?<br />
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This is where using god as an answer fails. We have no evidence of god, no proof that any religious tradition knows his views, no idea how this being we have no evidence for can interact in the world we understand or how these interactions can lead to the results being claimed.<br />
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Some people claim that science rejects God as an answer because it's supernatural outside of the bounds of methodological naturalism. Frankly this seems false. The reason god is rejected as an answer is because a mystery was solved with a bigger mystery. One with no explanatory power itself and which offers no further explanation to the original problem. More so this answer is itself often given as if no further questions need be asked in the first place this is maybe the biggest problem with using God as an answer to any question. This is what makes this answer irrelevant not some discussion of what is or isn't natural.<br />
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Unless you buy into the fact as I see it that the supernatural is by definition currently understood to be non existent In which case methodological naturalism becomes so much window dressing. It hides the base idea that you can't explain an existent thing with a non existent thing. That's not natural vs supernatural that's practically the beginnings of logic. A is not B / Existence is not nonexistence.<br />
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Picture of the cosmic sky bunny taken from the website for <a href="http://www.bunnychurch.com/2008/01/basics-of-bunny-religion.html">church of the cosmic bunny</a> which I must now explore thoroughly.... I like bunnehs ^.^Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-88609812628907119152013-02-01T09:53:00.000-08:002013-02-21T07:52:00.756-08:00Can something supernatural exist?I'm starting to think no almost by definition but hear me out.<br />
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPx8REqu9bD0tf2YZgHvJvHxJkqYvSurmu3zmcslcDJcrqsB4XTIXO9-nSnetWA3gn7YOok8iSmcTMqRlsqCXaCY8rqPBPTnR7QaGl9f_6vArqsbWkkpujbNcP_2QFvYK80_j2elgQLxI/s1600/220px-Hase_mit_Ostereiern_(2).jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPx8REqu9bD0tf2YZgHvJvHxJkqYvSurmu3zmcslcDJcrqsB4XTIXO9-nSnetWA3gn7YOok8iSmcTMqRlsqCXaCY8rqPBPTnR7QaGl9f_6vArqsbWkkpujbNcP_2QFvYK80_j2elgQLxI/s1600/220px-Hase_mit_Ostereiern_(2).jpg" /></a><br />
In the comments at<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/02/01/atheists-are-skeptics/#comments"> pharyngula</a> someone said this:<br />
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"That’s easy: no. You could be an atheist and not even be a naturalist of any kind. You could believe someone has psychic powers, for example, and not call that person a “god.”"<br />
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My problem with the idea of naturalism and ultimately the concept of the supernatural comes up in psychic powers.<br />
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We see psychic powers as supernatural because they break the laws of the universe as we understand them currently and there's no evidence they exist. This seem to be the 2 defining aspects of something supernatural 1. we couldn't currently explain something and 2. it doesn't seem to exist.<br />
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How do we know something exists? I'd say because it interacts with us or some other existent thing in a way we can observe. If something doesn't interact with anything else it is indistinguishable from non existence.* Some people claim faith as a means of knowing but ultimately faith relies on an absence of any evidence and is completely untestable, comparable or falsifiable so I don't think a belief in something's existence can in it self justify a claim of knowledge of it's existence. Certainly not to anyone else and I have doubts as to how convincing it can be on it's own to an individual.<br />
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So for the sake of this discussion lets say that a psychic power can interact with the rest of the natural either directly ie moving an object or somewhat more abstractly ie predicting the future. As soon as there is evidence they this interaction exists it will be unexplainable by our current science. However science is adaptable. This existence will cause scientists to reevaluate all natural laws and create new laws describing the limitations, and rules governing the psychic powers. When this is done the psychic powers have become part of the new natural laws. If they are now described by natural laws doesn't that now make them part of the set of natural things instead of the set of supernatural ones?<br />
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Even if we didn't understand the origin of the energy/power etc for the psychic powers it would be no different then our limited understanding of gravity. We can describe how gravity works but we have yet to distill out the exact causes of gravity. Gravity despite this gravity is considered natural.<br />
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If you look back in history this pattern seems to hold true. Things that have had claimed supernatural origins lightning, rainbows etc have been integrated into the natural the more we learn about them.Thus as far as I can tell the existence of a (colloquially) supernatural thing ultimately makes it natural. The whole idea of the supernatural seems based on things we currently understand can't and don't exist as far as we understand the world, when we do find them to exist they quickly become part of the natural.<br />
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*For a further analysis of this idea see <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfHjC-AxEMY">Tracieh's dice</a> model of existence, non existence and transcendence.<br />
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Easter bunny from wikipedia commons.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-58146002150151813652013-01-29T18:47:00.000-08:002013-02-21T17:31:31.353-08:00SkepticismBrief little post and not responding to a video. <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/27/a-common-complaint-i-hear-a-lot-nowadays/">PZ myers</a>, <a href="http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2002-bigfoot-skeptics-new-atheists-politics-and-religion.html">Steven Novella</a> et al have been discussing skepticisms and its limits. Really this has been going on for some time but it has flared up again. For my part I want to take a moment to define what skepticism is for me.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzcLq8Uu7yRnhzskSZRgmCrwaOn7Mhyphenhyphenjjfdr2bFOW2TsXUwu5N332M-hoKwRJBnl45LF68KZNA-0aKnCI_5u9HnOUqcWQ_oDt2jIXMmNFj7GpIdcrYY5-nbz6uQ89YyyQ4Z58knR5VtaA/s1600/skeptical_bunny_is_skeptical_by_embiearts-d30krj6.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="223" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzcLq8Uu7yRnhzskSZRgmCrwaOn7Mhyphenhyphenjjfdr2bFOW2TsXUwu5N332M-hoKwRJBnl45LF68KZNA-0aKnCI_5u9HnOUqcWQ_oDt2jIXMmNFj7GpIdcrYY5-nbz6uQ89YyyQ4Z58knR5VtaA/s320/skeptical_bunny_is_skeptical_by_embiearts-d30krj6.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
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To me the key concept of skepticism is question everything. Challenge, explore, criticize examine everything. Nothing should get a free pass. If the ideas are valuable and useful they should stand against examination if they aren't they we should discard* them and move on. There are some (Barbara Drescher comes to mind search micahelD in the <a href="http://icbseverywhere.com/blog/2012/05/mission_drift_conflation_and_food_for_thought/">comments</a>) who limit skepticism to scientific skepticism saying that skepticism can only examine testable claims everything else is beyond it. I disagree, to me science is only part of skepticism which should not be limited to science but all of critical thinking. Where science ends philosophy begins and that is where skepticism and critical thinking should continue.<br />
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Our values and untestable beliefs inform our actions and our actions have consequences, I don't think anyone disagrees with this. As they have consequences both on ourselves and others there is all the more reason to challenge them, examine them and if necessary discard or change them. If you examine a value you shouldn't use science (although it may influence your views) but use philosophy and ethics. If you examine an untestable claim you should look to epistemology. Someone reading this might say that without science finding the truth about them is hard, maybe impossible. To me that's only a call for greater thought, greater discussion, and yes greater skepticism.<br />
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Skeptical bunny borrowed from <a href="http://embiearts.deviantart.com/art/Skeptical-Bunny-is-Skeptical-182367330">deviant art</a>.<br />
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*I want to leave a little note that it's not as simple as absolute right or wrong. There are plenty of wrong ideas that can still be useful in certain discussions as long as you are aware of the limitations. See Asimov's <a href="http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm">the Relativity of Wrong</a> for a further discussion.<br />
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[Edit/Update] It seems (there's always a chance we've miscommunicated) for what it's worth that Novella agrees with the view that skepticism is about more then examining scientific claims (although I don't know how far he'd go for sure) See <a href="http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/bigfoot-skeptics-new-atheists-politics-and-religion/comment-page-2/#comment-49563">comments section</a> ctrl + F for harkerHarkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-68419618564677043322013-01-15T19:24:00.002-08:002013-01-15T19:24:34.256-08:00Extra credits on faithAnd now for something a bit different. Another commentary on a video well 3 videos discussing a religion related topic but from outside the atheist community or youtube community for that matter.<br />
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In this case I'll be responding to extra credits a penny arcade show discussing the more artistic/technical aspects of games and game design. Over Christmas they decided to address the topic of religion in games spread over 2 videos and a third responding to the ensuing controversy. I actually really like the show for the most part but I think they really mangled their discussion of faith in games so after thinking it over I'm this is a response to them. More particularly where they went wrong discussing faith in games.<br />
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5.16 Religion in games part 1<br />
<a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/religion-in-games-part-1">http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/religion-in-games-part-1</a><br />
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This video introduces the ideas they will discuss and how they will break down religion into 3 parts: Mechanics, Lore and faith. Then they discuss mechanics and lore leaving faith for the 2nd video. Ultimately I have very little problem with this part (though they keep using Witcher 2 when Witcher 1 would be more appropriate) but I think I will pick out one chunk.<br />
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1:00-1:28<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"The problem with how discussions of religion and games take shape and even how we were thinking about talking about it originally is in thinking about religion as one indivisible irreducible concept. Doing so often leads to our conversations becoming scattered we try to sweep up too many disparate ideas into one generalized whole or equally disastrous we each use the term religion in games to talk about completely different specific aspects of the large concept of religion resulting in a tangled frustrating mess of a conversation."</i><br />
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I find this chunk from the start of Part 1 to be particularly prescient in hind sight. Ultimately what seems to be the problem with the discussion of faith is this. They don't define faith and lump many different epistemological ideas and problems together as one thing. Ultimately leading to discussions that just run past each other.<br />
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5.17 Religion in games part 2<br />
<a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/religion-in-games-part-2">http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/religion-in-games-part-2</a><br />
Here is where we start to get to the meat of where people are objecting. Here is how the video starts its discussion of faith:<br />
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0:026-0:46<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>"And today we'll be discussing how they deal with faith. To me faith is the heart of all religion. It's something that many of us struggle with our entire lives. It's something that affects each of us profoundly whether we have it or not. It has defined so much of our history and is one of the hardest concepts to wrap your head around. It's also one of the most deeply personal and profoundly emotional parts of our lives as human beings and yet video games don't explore the concept at all. "</i></span><br />
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So instead of starting with a definition to put us all on the same page we get a hodgepodge of things amounting to faith is important and a hard concept to wrap your head around. Well this is exactly why any discussion of faith should begin with a definition (even a tentative incomplete one) so that we can have this conversation.<br />
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0:46-1:10<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>"We never see the priest without magic powers. The priest who has no tangible proof of their god trying to reconcile their faith with a world where terrible things still happen to good people. We never see the scientist struggling to align reason and belief. We never live through the heart breaking loss of faith or the finding of faith when all else is lost. Though we've come close to addressing it a handful of times."</i></span><br />
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This is actually part of the video I like I think we should try to explore these issues in games. I may have my own biases on these questions and experiences but I have no problem exploring them through games. Note that these are all very religious views of faith. Faith as belief or knowledge against conflicting information. The priest tries to reconcile his belief in god with the evidence in the world that bad things happen where a god could stop them (problem of evil). The scientist tries to reconcile religious ideas say the existence of an afterlife with neuroscience that seems to show that our memories, behaviors all that makes us who we are is part of the brain (dualism vs monism or materialism). This faith could be described as Merriam Websters does "<span style="background-color: white; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;">firm belief in something for which there is no proof".</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;">1:17-1:25</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;">"If we've gotta use this kind of binary system wouldn't it at least be a little more interesting to have a faith skepticism bar instead of just one of good and evil"</span><br />
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I actually like this idea though I'm not sure what game would make good use of it. There's also a serious risk in our society of it just becoming a good evil bar with the way non believers are often portrayed as nihilists. There's also the possibility of skepticism just becoming flat out denial in the supernatural events that go on around you which would also be a ridiculous situation. Then again you could do something similar with faith becoming the worst aspects religion . I'm really not sure where it would get us and we'd be better ditching the bars all together (though maybe that's a different conversation).<br />
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1:25-1:40<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"Why? Why do we never touch on faith in games? Why is it somehow a more taboo subject then the extremities of violence or the notion of good and evil? It's hard to say but if we're truly honest with our selves its due in part to the fact that within our community there is some hostility toward faith and to be fair people of faith have show us a fair bit of hostility in the past."</span><br />
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I'd say the problem is in part our societal favoritism towards religion where arguing challenging or discussing religious ideas is seen as more taboo. Some religious leaders and groups don't think the articles of their religion should ever be discussed or challenged. From a marketing point of view in an industry that loves established IP and hates taking risks its not surprising that playing it safe on faith means not discussing it for the most part. But onto the meat of our disagreement.<br />
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1:40-2:00<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"But this is just silly. All reason is based on faith. All logical systems by necessity have to start with a group of postulates that have to be taken on faith. All of our math is built up this way and all of our science lies not on exhaustive proof but rather on being the most probably thing that hasn't been proven wrong."</span><br />
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This is why you need a definition going it because here is where you start equivocating (if one is being less generous this is where the lack of a definition makes the equivocation less noticeable . This is still obvious in your opening when you say "[faith] is something that affects us profoundly whether we have it or not". This comes off as those who have faith and are religious and those who don't and aren't especially in the subsequent very religious conversation The figures drawn are a person surrounded by a fiery glow and a second person sans glow (and a smile but I'll ignore the subtle implications) which also works well under a religious view of faith. Comparing that to this last part where you claim all reason is based on faith. Does this mean that the person without faith is without reason? Are they just denying the faith in the reason they hold? Do you maybe need to be more clear on what faith is?<br />
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The faith one has in science is in no way like religious faith. Faith in the broad sense you seem to be defining it is very different then the kind of religious faith that tries to reconcile a belief in the face of counter evidence. Where as the faith in science is closer to a confidence in its base postulates even on a conditional basis. This conditional basis is largely why I and others wouldn't use faith for it. Each element of science even its base assumptions are open to questioning none of them are held as being beyond examination and ideally any of them can be dropped the moment they prove to be false or no longer useful (many false ideas are still useful as approximations of reality in a given situation see flat earth when building a house for example).<br />
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2:00-2:30<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"At the beginning of the 20th century some very rational people atheists, skeptics and agnostics believed that we were only 1 or 2 problems away from solving all physics. From completely understanding how everything in the physical universe works. They believed in Newtonian physics much in the same way we believe in our science with certainty and conviction. And yet with just a few short years it was discovered that we were no where near solving physics and that some of the premises they based their reasoning on that we had had faith in were dead wrong."</span><br />
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To start with being an atheist, skeptic, or agnostic in no way makes you rational as we in the Atheist skeptical community experience all the time. We do not believe in science with certainty and conviction, at least not if you understand science. Everything in science is tentative and can ideally be overthrow when new information is presented. Some people stick to the old theory despite this but that isn't how science should be it should embrace the evidence where ever it leads. This kind of transient support really shouldn't be talked about as a certainty. Now on being "dead wrong" I think everyone should go read an essay by Issac Asimov called <a href="http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm">the relativity of wrong</a>. The thrust of the essay is that we think of right and wrong as absolutes when they aren't they are a gradient. To take just a chunk to for those unwilling or able to read the essay:<br />
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<i>"Nowadays, of course, we are taught that the flat-earth theory is wrong; that it is all wrong, terribly wrong, absolutely. But it isn't. The curvature of the earth is nearly 0 per mile, so that although the flat-earth theory is wrong, it happens to be nearly right. That's why the theory lasted so long."</i><br />
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This is what happened with Newtonian physics its postulates and premises work very well on the scale of the universe we live on and continue to work well on that level (see NASA rockets which are entirely Newtonian problems). They weren't wrong they were incomplete and when new evidence came along so did the idea that it would solve everything because that belief wasn't strong faith belief but a very conditional one.<br />
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2:40-2:46<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"The only difference between science and religion is that science takes faith as the starting point where as for religion faith is the central tenant."</i><br />
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No not really. Science takes nothing on faith everything that can be tested is tested. Even the validity of our senses can be tested. I can see a mug of cocoa, feel the warm porcelain and wet water, maybe hear the liquid slosh as I walk, taste the contents, smell the steam. They confirm and check against each other and can be compared with the senses of someone else.<br />
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2:46-3:00<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>"Even if we've had bad experience in the past with people claiming to be of faith, we shouldn't have a knee jerk reaction to the concept of it or reject it out of hand without being willing to explore it at least."</i></span><br />
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I honestly hate the way you start that as if the only problem someone might have with faith is a bad experience with someone. When most atheists talk about faith defined as a belief without evidence or worse in the face of evidence. We see real problems with this kind of thinking and the way these thoughts lead to actions that are often harmful. This doesn't mean we can't explore them. I'd love to see them explored more but that doesn't mean I won't criticize the sloppy way you use the word or the thematic message of the story or how such an exploration is done. Literary criticism is part of having an exploration of a subject there is no sacred cow exempt from it.<br />
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I'm just going to ignore the Einstein quote at the end as it just continues to raise the same questions about how you define your words particularly mystical and religion/religious. Atheists have no lack for the sense of awe and wonder but I really don't know how religious or mystical would fit into those beyond a metaphorical symbolic level.<br />
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5.28 God does not play with dice<br />
<a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/god-does-not-play-dice">http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/god-does-not-play-dice</a><br />
This is a video discussion of the backlash to their last video on faith and their response to it. The continued problems of the equivocation of religious faith with tentative belief in an untested value continues to muddy the conversation. It's similar to discussing hot foods. Talking about baked, boiled roasted before bringing up hot salsa. While you can have a discussion of hot foods and hot foods in either context you need to clearly define your scope going in to avoid conflating different ideas.<br />
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0:50-1:08<br />
<i><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"But science doesn't really need to be defended against the concept of faith only some of its misuses. It saddened us that so many people on the boards had such hatred of religion and such veneration of science that they couldn't even look at the places where they might gain from one another. </span></i><i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">The best thing we can do for the things we venerate is question."</i><br />
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I agree science doesn't need to be defended against the concept of faith but I find your sloppy definitions (or non definitions) frustrating. Even under your own very open faith any supposition no matter how tenuous science is ultimately at odds with all suppositions and with anything based on faith. It seeks constantly to try to explain, explore and justify every supposition and everything you might claim to be held on faith. They're all fair game as much as anything can be and as much as possible science aims to eliminate all suppositions. I don't see what science as a method of learning about reality can learn from a concept of taking things for granted and not exploring or testing them as faith is often treated.<br />
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1:08-1:30<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"I had hopes that the episode would spawn a rational discussion of how we could use faith without being blinded by it. But instead I saw the very same knee jerk hostility we mentioned in the episode. I saw people not differentiating between religion and faith when we had just spent two episodes talking about how faith is an important element of religion but not all of it and certainly exclusive to it. That faith is universal and applies to everyone's life in someway or another."</i><br />
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The continued problem is that you have failed to define faith in a religious sense and by your own admission it can be absent from peoples lives. If you'd try to actually work out a definition of faith to better ground people in what you're talking about you'd be less frustrated when people start using definitions of faith different then the one you use. However you would define it it's obvious that none of the definitions in say Merriam Webster fit <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith">http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith</a> . You need to address this if you want a better conversation.<br />
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2:00-2:40<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"It seemed like most of the comments were making two arguments First that science is about observation and second that it relies on logic. So lets dig into those two statements and see if science is devoid of faith. First lets take science is based on observation, to that argument I say I agree 100% but that very statement necessitates the inclusion of faith in science. I mean to base anything on observation demands a great deal of faith. You must trust that your observations are true observations and you have all the standard examples how do you know you're not in the matrix, how do you know you're not dreaming, are your obsrvations more valid then those of someone who's colour blind I mean if they can have observations that aren't true why can't you?"</i><br />
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Once again you need to define faith. Most of solipsism is ultimately pointless. Regardless of if any of this is real we can investigate the nature of this experience. We can see if elements of it are consistent. If they are consistent we can begin to examine how they behave and what patterns or rules govern them. If an idea like you're in a virtual reality or the universe was created 5minutes ago can be put forward without evidence its fairly safe to reject them without evidence.<br />
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When it comes to colour blind people you can actually prove to them that colour exists and you can see it even if they can't. Imagine a parking lot of 2000 cars all identical to the naked eye of a group of color blind people. If one is how ever in fact green when the rest are red then they can simply randomize the cars and you can easily recognize the green car among the red every time. They may not understand it immediately but they can tell that there is something that distinguishes this car to you and not them. Further more you could then do a chemical analysis of the paint or examine the wavelength of the reflected light and see that it is in fact different (colour is just a indicator of the lights wavelength after all).<br />
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There are also plenty of times when are observations are wrong. Stage magic, optical illusions etc this isn't a matter of faith its a matter of careful observation and being aware that we might be wrong and have to reevaluate the situation.<br />
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2:40-2:46<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">" Descartes who I consider one of the father of the scientific method goes into the question of what can be known with certainty a great deal in his meditations."</i><br />
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Nothing can be known with certainty. Even Descartes one truth the fact that his thoughts exist may not be true as we learn more about decision making and free will. I'm personally open either way but it is an open question as far as I'm concerned. What ultimately matters is how likely something is to be true and how we can best assign likely hoods. If you'd move beyond black and white true or false, certain or uncertain it would really help.<br />
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2:50-5:54<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">We get into a discussion of euclidian math and postulates.</span><br />
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The same basic things I've bee saying apply here too. False and incomplete are different ideas. To most definitions of faith tentative belief in a postulate is different then a certain belief in the face or absence of evidence but your definition of faith lumps these ideas together as equivalent.<br />
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5:55<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"You'll always find something you're just going to have to simply believe."</i><br />
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Again not necessarily. You can always try to test these things to some extent. You mentioned dreaming earlier. It's possible to test if you're in a dream based on your experiences of dreaming. Pain is absent in dreams, reading is never a consistent experience. With these possible tests you can try to determine if you're dreaming right now.<br />
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6:20<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>"Looking into it helped James realise that math and science don't lose something because they aren't some absolute objectivist truth."</i></span><br />
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Exactly but this doesn't mean that there's a leap of faith involved. At least not in the colloquial definitions of faith (this is why again you need to define your non standard use of the term).<br />
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7:00<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">"James actually does this a lot, he likes to play word games in our episodes from time to time where he likes to say exactly what he means and see if it kicks peoples consciousness into thinking about it"</i><br />
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I have no idea if your inability to define your muddled term was one of these games but this is really a time when we need you to say exactly what you mean by faith so we can have a discussion.<br />
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Sigh at this point I'm just too frustrated with this lack of definition to continue nor do I really care about Einstein. The problems in these videos keep coming back to the same point. You never defined your terms which is probably the most important (and often overlooked) step in having a discussion. Making sure everyone is on the same page.<br />
<br />Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-14821262100024765542013-01-07T06:46:00.001-08:002013-01-15T19:29:07.254-08:00Feminism poisons atheism part 2 response.<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSduYSUhWhVy4gjBTJ8jC8GSVVK0X0SG8KRUG4psjyHdtbwZ0zIX_Z88lQtVsqzk-AinwKgEZXtDuC0QfwbsJZxd3VxhWa3Qj0CtIxPXISVtx6pdS_whSiPAKh2idMMqsBtSwhicCGKk4/s1600/Almost-twins--bunny-rabbits-604556_300_265.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSduYSUhWhVy4gjBTJ8jC8GSVVK0X0SG8KRUG4psjyHdtbwZ0zIX_Z88lQtVsqzk-AinwKgEZXtDuC0QfwbsJZxd3VxhWa3Qj0CtIxPXISVtx6pdS_whSiPAKh2idMMqsBtSwhicCGKk4/s1600/Almost-twins--bunny-rabbits-604556_300_265.jpg" /></a>Here we are once again those<strike> dinosaur names try to say them out loud and then say them again! </strike> err youtube atheists.<br />
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Phil Mason* has releases another video and after some debate I've decided to respond. In for a penny in for a pound. There may be some minor paraphrasing in my transcript part but I have tried to keep the ideas intake as they are presented as much as possible and be honest to all that is being said. Here is a link to the original video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApozFPboUAQ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApozFPboUAQ</a> Why 'feminism' is poisoning atheism (Part 2)<br />
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Legend /cut : refers to a place where the clip has been cut and Phil has placed originally 2 non continuous ideas together.<br />
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00-1min<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Video starts with a woman introducing herself as the leader of a secular university group Monica Harmsen. She goes on to explain that youtube channels, twitter accounts and face book pages are personal property and people have the right to moderate their channels. This moderation she says is not silencing someone because they can speak on their own channels and voice themselves there</i>.</span><br />
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1min-2min<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason responds they are not personal property they are public communication media. They are more like public open spaces (he shows a people rallied in a park). Claims in the public forum good ideas propagate better then bad ideas. If arguments can't withstand public scrutiny they're probably bullshit.</i></span><br />
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I'm actually wondering why Mason is so stuck on this issue. Why do all internet conversations have to follow the same format? For example in the offline world you can have a public lecture where a speaker talks to the public uninterrupted and there may or may not be time for questions. Or you can have a classical style symposium or dinner party where a number of people have related discussions but a certain decorum at the request of the host is expected. Or you could all gather in a park with maybe with a microphone you cycle through and have a discussion and people who don't like it can leave.<br />
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Mason view of youtube etc seems to be that they must be the last example but why must this be any better then the other 2 or any other form. You can go to a lecture get ideas debate them at the symposium share your understanding at the rally then discussion your altered views at the next symposium before listening to another lecture. That's fine that's what we do all the time and its still as he would call it an open market place of ideas. Mason's arguement would be like a saying the dinner party or lecture must change and be like the rally the only real form of free speech which just isn't the case.<br />
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I'm also not at all convinced good ideas propagate better then bad ideas. There are certainly some ideas (you shouldn't pet tigers, the earth is round) that have a lot of very practical short term uses (not getting eaten, global trade) that make their acceptance highly favored but this isn't true for all ideas. Creationism, Religion, global warming denial all do very well for themselves in the public forum despite being bad ideas.<br />
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2-2:21<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: I think that's how it should be run. You think it's like you get to get up on your soap box and if someone speaks up and says your're wrong you evict them. If you want to create an echo chamber and create a forum where no one has the right to reply we have names for places like that they're called churches.</i></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: white;">This is frankly a mischaracterization of what people are saying. There is a difference between evicting a guest from your dinner party because he disagrees with your views on economic policy and evicting a guest because he says you're an pinko communist who can't wait to send people to the gulags. One involves actually trying to understand the opposing position and trying to make a reasonable critic of it. The other is just an attempt to slur and slander the person making the claims instead of addressing their validity. If the guest continues to go on like this making conversation between the other guests difficult the proper thing for the host to do is get them to leave so people interested in a real discussion can have that opportunity. This is what people want is a forum where a discussion of the issues can be had without getting sidetracked.</span><br />
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In this video Mason again shows the disabled comments on Myer's youtube account and makes no mention of the open comments on the linked blog post or the continuous open unmoderated post. Leaving both out it is frankly disingenuous to suggest that there are no opportunities for disagreement to be had.<br />
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2:21-2:50<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Monica Harmsen says you see it as an open forum others see it differently. </i></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason responds you're right some people view it more as a church. And to me and many others with a strong commitment to the fundamental virtues of a first world society this is a deal breaker.</i></span><br />
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Again you're argueing against lectures and symposiums with this argument. It is not unreasonable to suggest that some areas of the public forum have different rules in how you engage in them then others.<br />
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2:56-3:40<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Rebecca Watson on google+: The best you can do if you're running a forum you know who gets in utilize the block button on twitter. </i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: In an instant it shows that persons's contempt for one of the most important aspects of modern society. If they're willing to throw open expression in a free and public media under the bus for personal convenience fuck them. Sure it's a choice by them, It's a choice that they prefer the echochamber or church approach and I'm really not sure that's a ringing endorsement of them to be a critical thinker.</i></span><br />
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Interesting he cuts off Rebecca there. She continues on the atheism + google+ conversation. "Utilize the FBI when necessary." Why would you call the FBI over criticism? Obviously you wouldn't and this conversation is out of context. If you watch the video the people they are talking about are people harassing them with threats of violence and rape. They are not discussing criticism. Harassment is not criticism. Calling someone a fascist anti intellectual cult leader is not criticizing their ideas. The repeated conflation of harassment with criticism is mind boggling, disingenuous and not a ringing endorsement of a critical thinker.<br />
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3:40- 4:24<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Monica Harmsen: In that same vein harassment policies at conferences should not be limiting to you. I've been to many conferences since this conversation started. I was at women in secularism 1 when this conversation got started. I have seen these harassment policies they're not that restrictive.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: I think we're looking at different policies I'm looking at the one that want fake jewelry and offensive speech banned at conferences.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Amy Roth: We're not asking for basic rules so we can say things like making fake jewelry and intentionally offending people is not ok.</i></span><br />
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There are currently no policies that ban fake jewelry. Although Amy Roth said that at the time her position seems to have since changed. From the skepticon 5 policy which you quoted from last video:<br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: white;">"<span style="font-family: 'PT Sans', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">Harassment includes offensive verbal comments [related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religious identity], deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Assuming the absence of problematic behavior (intimidation, following, inappropriate physical contact, etc.), criticism or disagreement regarding an attendee’s belief structure will not be construed as harassment."</span> </span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: white;">This is the kind of behavior we are talking about with these policies notice no mention of jewelry. Your continued misinformation about these policies despite repeatedly being pointed to the policies is dishonest on your part.</span><br />
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4:25-5:00<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: And if you really think that's the way to go, fine. Then I find your brand of feminism offensive. Does this now mean you should be banned from any conference you show up to attend for harassing behavior.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Monica Harmsen: The only people who would be potentially hurt or affected by these policies would be creeps. Do you want to be a creep at conferences [phil mason]? If not then the harassment policies don't affect you.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason:Well actually if the harassment policies include offensive speech then yes, yes it does.</i></span><br />
<br />
The policy clearly lays out what speech might be labelled offensive name<span style="font-family: PT Sans, sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">ly "</span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: 'PT Sans', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">verbal comments [related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religious identity], deliberate intimidation,...[or] </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: 'PT Sans', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">sustained disruption of talks or other events..." </span><span style="background-color: white; line-height: 18px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Someones views on the limitations of free speech is not something that is covered by the policy so they would not be thrown out for it. If they attacked your race gender etc or threatened you then yes they could get evicted. Similarly if are planning to make personal attacks or threats etc then yes this would affect you if not then it wouldn't. If it would affect you frankly we don't want you attending, if it doesn't then offensive speech is not something that will affect you.</span></span><br />
<br />
5:00-5:35<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: For my part I think Dave Silverman gets it absolutely right that above all conferences should be fun.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Dave Silverman: well we followed the reason rally with our largest atheist convention ever and it was our most fun american atheist event ever. One thing that I feel very strongly about is that conventions need to be fun. They need to be informative and they need to be empowering and they also need to be fun.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: And you're not going to get that with a bunch of hyper offend-able feminists trying to make the whole bloody conference about their professional victimhood.</i></span><br />
<br />
That's not exactly what Dave said he said the conference should be fun he didn't say above all else. Reasonable rules do not preclude an event from being fun. A strip clubs for example has rules about what you can and can't do with the dancers by following these rules you can have a good time and the dancer can have a known set of limits that can be maintained for their benefit. Similarly although the presence or absence of racial slurs may not affect your enjoyment it may be a significant factor to the enjoyment of others. By setting and enforcing rules we can ensure that a reasonably high level of enjoyment can be had by all the attendees.<br />
<br />
5:35-6:35<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Monica Harmsen: If it's spelled out in black and white what is or is not acceptable at that conference. /cut</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>We define what that harassment is then we can say whether or not there is any legitimacy to these claims which means you would no longer have to complain about people talking about rape threats or other things you don't see as being threatening. I don't think rape threats are acceptable but we wouldn't be talking about whether or not they were acceptable if they were written in black and white rules, Rape threats are not acceptable.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Phil Mason: What the fuck are you on about? Where did I ever say that rape threats weren't threatening? I mean let me be absolutely clear if someone make a credible threat that they are going to rape you then that's a criminal offense whether you're at the conference or not at the conference. If you like there is already a harassment policy that covers that absolutely it's called the law.</i></span><br />
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I think Monica erred by focusing on rape threats instead of sexual harassment more generally which is what the policies more specifically address. Though when rape threats are mentioned its also qualified "or other things you don't find threatening" but you ignore any of that. However I take issue with "Credible threat" especially coming from someone as supportive of free speech as yourself it seems almost hypocritical. The possibility of action being taken has never been the reason for such threats. If one is considering violent action yelling a warning to the world is counter productive as you are more likely to succeed in such violence if the victim is less aware of your efforts to begin with. The purpose of threats is intimidation either of the person directly threatened or to others who view the threat and may fear engaging in actions or speech like threatened person did.<br />
<br />
These are silencing tactics, bullying tactics, trying to use the threat of force to discourage free speech and the discussion of ideas. This is true regardless of any intent on the person issuing the threat to follow through something which is often unknown and hard to gauge. This is why under Canadian law for instance it is illegal to issue threats regardless of your intent to carry them out. <a href="http://www.defencelaw.com/utter-threats.html">http://www.defencelaw.com/utter-threats.html</a><br />
<br />
6:35-7:11<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Phil Mason: But it gets worse then that because there are no rape threats at conferences just like there are no babies microwaved at conferences. But should we now have anti baby microwave policy at conferences. Well why not because the only people affected by that policy are those microwaving babies. I mean you're not going to microwave a baby are you so why would oppose such a policy? Well now maybe you can see that there might be a downside to this. Like maybe a right wing group picking this up saying atheist conferences are so immoral they need an anti baby microwaving policy.</i><br />
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It bugs me that you start conflating their are no rape threats at conferences with the broader aims of anti harrassment policies. Mention of threats is a foot note in these policies. I'll address the lsat point about right wing groups further down.<br />
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7:11-8:08<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Phil Mason: Or maybe just maybe this is the sort of thing that will discourage ladies from attending the conference. I mean I've got to admit if i was going to a conference and it said murder rape mutilation and torture threats were against the conference rules it would put so many read flags up for me. I mean I stand to be corrected but please just tell me when someone threatened to rape someone at a secular conference or for that matter eat a baby. Until such evidence is forthcoming you are proposing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and in doing so you're making us all look like immoral losers and you are pointlessly disenfranchising women from this movement by creating such fictitious boogeymen and that is why you are poisoning atheism.</i><br />
<br />
Your continued vexation by rape threats aside people do get harrassed see Ashley Miller <a href="http://ashleyfmiller.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/harassment-at-tam9/">http://ashleyfmiller.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/harassment-at-tam9/</a><br />
Or accounts like these <a href="http://www.facebook.com/notes/rob-tarzwell/tam-rebecca-watson-and-female-safety-two-anecdotes/10150932203392412">http://www.facebook.com/notes/rob-tarzwell/tam-rebecca-watson-and-female-safety-two-anecdotes/10150932203392412</a><br />
<br />
So these things do happen. This idea that having a policy will hurt attendance has always seemed short sighted. Without a policy and with events like these there are people being harassed and the response is uneven because there are no guidelines to follow. People who get to events are are harassed may not want to come back and may tell others about their experiences leading them not to attend. By trying to address the problem it may make things worse in the short term but if it makes the events better for people who go to them they will have a good time and they will get more people to come out next time.<br />
<br />
Think of it like infrastructure investment. If you have a road that's full of potholes and its a horrible drive that slows everything down then starting up road work is probably going to slow traffic down even more in the short term. In the long term though, having a better paved road where you're not worried about damaging your car can make traffic better for all the drivers that use it.<br />
<br />
I wish I could find it now but back 6 months ago when this was in full swing a commenter on FTB made a good point that these policies also protect the convention should horrible event occur.<br />
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8:08-8:52<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Monica Harmsen: Conferences are privately founded affairs. The organizers of the conferences like the moderators of youtube channels and twitter accounts are entitled to make any rules they want. If you want to follow those rules don't go to the conference.</i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i><br /></i></span>
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Mason: Yeah that's sort of right and the biggest goal of such conferences is to have people going home thinking.... [umm ok this is badly recorded... umm Mason and Aron are singing in a large auditorium setting and the audio quality seems to suffer] ...wow that lets do that again and lets bring some friends next time.</i></span><br />
<br />
Finally something easy we all agree on. Conferences are fun and should be fun for everyone you should leave wanting to go again. But if you have 20 kids playing in a school yard and one of them is running around whacking the others with a stick and you make rules and take the stick away. You have made the experience less enjoyable for one person but more enjoyable for everyone else. Some parents seeing a no rough housing rule may worry about the kind of play that occures but if the experience is good parents will spread the word and it will be a great space for kids to play because everyone is following the rules.<br />
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8:52-9:20<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Mason: and** I'll be frank all this bullshit that's grown out of one guy asking one professional victim feminist out for coffee is an absolute mood killer for 9 out of 10 in this community. Myself included. You know the 9 out of 10 who when they go to such a conference expect to be treated like a responsible adult and not get nananied by some absurdly politically correct list of do's and don'ts.</i><br />
<br />
Here is the classic misinterpretation of what elevator gate was about. Asking a woman out for coffee was not the problem. Rebecca stayed up late talking in a bar with some of the attendees. When she said she was tired and had to go to bed one of the people there followed her to the elevator. While in the confined space of the elevator he asked her if sh'ed like to go to his room for coffee despite knowing she was very tired. She found this creepy made a brief mention of it in a video and then people went nuts. As if a big deal should be made out of saying I find people staring at me where ever I go in a room creepy people don't stare at me.<br />
<br />
I'm very curious where the 9 out of 10 figure came from. I googled a bit trying to find a source but no luck. Please try using more citations in the future if this number came from somewhere say so link it somewhere maybe in a references section in the video description. If you pulled it out of your head (I'll be charitable) you should't be citing it.<br />
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9:20-9:33<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Mason: And yeah to be honest I'm really pissed it ever came to this. I'm a solid believer in the big tent approach and that civil wars the ones that always kill more of your guys then any others, should be avoided at all costs.</i><br />
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I can tell you're really pissed cause you keep going on and on about it long after other people had the good sense to move on. I have three problems with your stance on "civil wars".<br />
<br />
First problem coming from you it's oddly anti free speech. You proudly trumpet the free market place of ideas and open discussions but addressing problems in our own community and things that we need to be better at is somehow wrong and labelled a civil war. Having internal debate and discussion is not a war it's the kind of thing you yourself advocate about not creating and echo chamber. If you don't want an echo chamber don't be surprised if people in your movement sometimes disagree with you (sometimes strongly disagree) and try to argue about it.<br />
<br />
Second problem I have no idea your position but for a lot of atheists this would be a hypocritical stance. When the pope says something anti homosexuality and we know prohomosexuality Catholics exist we expect them to speak out about it. If a Muslim issues a death threat we want the rest of the muslim community to come down on them hard saying this isn't how we have discussions or settle out disagreements. When Christians fragrantly flaunt constitutional law in the states we don't want to be the only voice we want other Christians calling them out on it as well. We can not expect other groups to police them selves and speak out against the stupidity in their communities if we don't do it in our own.<br />
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This is where I'll call back to your idea that right wing groups may see the policies and use them against us. Lastly it starts to create the very worst of in group biases. Situations where its more important to ignore whats wrong in our group then call attention to it cause someone outside might use it against us. Taken to the extreme this leads to the way the Catholics have handled their sexual abuse scandals or the penn state Jerry Sandusky scandal. People see real people being hurt in their communities either being harassed or worse and they decide the person doing the abusing is too important to be criticised. That keeping it all quiet makes us strong and keeps our opposition from using it against us. It is the worse aspect of in group bias and exactly the thing we should avoid. If that means a right wing group uses it against us fine (they take any opportunity) as long as we address the problems in our community and make things safe for the people there in.<br />
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9:33- 10:30<br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><i>Mason: But this poisonous splinter has worked itself in so far has become so distracting so that I now fully support the earlier call from atheist+ movement for all you crazy feminists to join their completely socially progressive movement. Yeah you do that you organise your own conferences your Atheist + style conferences where you'll all be happier with your church style discourse rather then messy open market place of ideas where you can pander as much as you want to the paranoid and the professional victim minority. Where you can try to create this safe space from threats that don't even exist. Let the rest of us mature responsible adults have our own conferences where the big boys and the big girls can have responsible fun together.</i></span><br />
<br />
We already seem to be winning most conferences have policies in place and the situation is better for everyone in my opinion because of it. I'm amused it's only facing this that you fully support atheism+. Always nice to get in a little mental illness shaming in there as well.<br />
<br />
Mature responsible adults don't have a problem with a few rules to have fun. Kids don't have a problem with rules to have fun. Water parks and swimming pools have rules but that doesn't stop thousands of kids from having fun. Adults engaged in nonmonogamous relationships have a conference and they have a whole bunch of rules <a href="http://www.open-sf.org/conduct.html">http://www.open-sf.org/conduct.html</a> . I bet they had a lot of fun. Life has a lot of rules and there's a lot of fun to be had. Being a responsible adult doesn't mean you don't need rules.<br />
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See my various links and discussions above for the rest. These problems exist, and free speech is more then just your favorite form. I can add public 1 v 1 debates and round table television discussions (real ones not just talking heads) to the various forms of the market place for ideas. Stop asking that every event be the same.<br />
<br />
10:30-11:44<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Monica Harmsen: No matter how I try to look at it and no matter how fairly I try to examine the situation the only conclusion I can come to is that this is less about some sort of righteous crusade and more about [Phil Mason]. /cut I don't actually think that [Phil Mason] is looking out for the best of the movement of the movement as a whole as he would like to think that he does. He might think that he does.</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><br /></i>
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Phil Mason: Well that's just wrong on so many levels and this is probably why it's best to keep the discussion to arguments and not who's making them. Else you start expressing opinions that you think that I think that I don't care about the movement as much as I think I do even though I might think that.</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><br /></i>
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Monica Harmsen: I don't think he cares about the movement as a whole as much as he think's he does. He might think that he does but in the end I think it's less about the good of the movement and more about the good of [Phil Mason] and his opinions.</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><br /></i>
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Phil Mason: Oh boy did you ever choose the wrong day to release this. The same day that I announced that I'm basically making all of the donations of last year for a prize fund to promote rational video making on youtube and for good reason.</i><br />
<br />
I'll actually grudgingly agree with Phil Mason here, I do think he cares about the community. He has a short sighted view of the problem and his complete inability to take criticism prevents him from changing those views. However in his own understanding of the situation he does actually want to make things better. Of course trying to treat a collapsed lung like any other gunshot wound won't save the victims life in the long run but someone is trying to help. There's also a certain about of self serving adoration in what he does.<br />
<br />
11:44-12:30<br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Monica Harmsen:</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">And when it comes to the movement youtube, twitter, that kind of stuff doesn't actually matter that much.</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><br /></i>
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Phil Mason: And there you are 100% absolutely categorically wrong. The internet is where religions come to die. Especially the viral media like youtube and this is why folks like myself have been thinking of ways to prevent the slow die off that this community has been experiencing and to encourage new talent into this forum. However I'm just one guy with no experience doing this sort of thing which is why I'm currently asking what you think the best way to achieve these goals would be.</i><br />
<br />
While I'd go farther then Monica does I do think the consciousness raising of the internet is helpful I think Phil takes it over the top. Religion is not where religions do to die they are dying all over the place and for more reason's then just the internet. The God delusion sold 2 million copies by 2010 was read more then that by people sharing the book and libraries etc, atheist groups continue to push for awareness in the public media, events and the courts. There are even atheists who don't do much of anything online I talked to at least one at a recent conference for whom the internet wasn't that big a deal. Your focus on yourself and your medium as being so great frankly comes off a little narcissistic.<br />
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12:30-13:03<br />
<i><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Phil Mason: In the meanwhile I'll leave you this unintensional irony of this wonderful band of feminism. </span></i><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><br /></span>
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Monica Harmsen: I know activists. Real activists who do things who try to make this country and this world a better safer place for non believers and a place where actual science and reason can flourish</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">[theres a little speed reel clip show of various youtube videos and from thunderf00ts own works]</i><br />
<i><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Like I have never seen somebody with so much hubris as [Phil Mason].</span></i><br />
<br />
<br />
While the work online is admirable, enjoyable and productive it is not sufficient and it requires work beyond that in the real world to achieve results. It's not all about your chosen media Phil but in many videos you take a moment to masterbate (metaphorically) about how awesome your media (youtube) when there is lots of other work being done like court cases to get changes made as well.<br />
------------<br />
I mostly left out his picture this time, we get a number of him goofing off with Aron et al and some repeats from the last video like Harriet Hall's t-shirt. Mostly I think they are minor to what he is actually saying.<br />
<br />
I also notice youtube has started providing transcripts through its captions option. Not sure I want to trust those yet.<br />
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Anyway thank you for reading if you want to disagree or correct anything I've said that's what the comments are for.<br />
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*I realized it would be odd if I was using everyone else's name except his. So no special treatment for him. His name is out there, he posted it in a video and its easy to find.<br />
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**Ok this is trivial but bugging me stop using and over and over again. Please find a new way to join or start ideas.<br />
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References<br />
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Atheist + conversation on google + is the video source for rebecca's comments.<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZYhbj1RGKs">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZYhbj1RGKs</a><br />
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edit:Here is the Monica Harmsen video he used video from.<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWHfkGWsnhQ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWHfkGWsnhQ</a><br />
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<br />Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-35132039415475026522013-01-04T09:24:00.000-08:002013-01-15T17:45:19.037-08:00A reply to Justin Vacula's latest video.<br />
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Because someone brought it up in a thread, here is a response to<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlXCgzf3bxY&feature=youtu.be&a">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlXCgzf3bxY&feature=youtu.be&a</a></div>
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11 minutes by justin vacula… ok I’ll watch and respond.<br />
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around the 2:40 mark<br />
<i>Idea that the atheist community is particularly hostile for women, followed by Justin not knowing how to prove this.</i></div>
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Atheist community is probably no worse then other communities when it comes to women this is not saying much as many online communities are not terribly inviting to women. Look at the gaming community, spend some time on FUoS <a href="http://fatuglyorslutty.com/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://fatuglyorslutty.com/</a> . Women face a higher level of harassment then men just for stepping into the conversation. I will let some personal information out of the bag. I was a moderator of a no longer existent fetish site. The women there took a hell of a lot more abuse then the men, men treating them badly, ignoring repeated requests to leave them alone etc. This is not something unique to atheism but it’s something we’d like to address.</div>
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As to how you would even prove it’s harder for a woman, change the gender of your username and try to say the same stuff you would have before the same way you would have said it before. You will be treated differently.</div>
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3:18<br />
<i>Slyme pit is disappointed at the continuation of these claims that the atheist community is hostile to women</i></div>
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We are disappointed with the continued harassment and bullying that comes out of the slyme pit. From photoshopping pictures of their critics, to taking glee in the misfortunes of those critics and their families.</div>
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3:59<br />
<i>can we really take comments to the effect of you should get rapped seriously. </i><br />
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I don’t know about where you live. In Canada were I live it’s illegal to utter threats even if you are unable to or have no interest in carrying them through.</div>
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from defenselaw.com<br />
“To secure a conviction at trial, the Crown must prove that the person making the threat did so knowingly. That is, the prosecution must show that he was aware of the words used and the meaning they would convey. It also must show that he intended the threat to be taken seriously, that is, to intimidate or strike fear into the recipient. It is not necessary that the person making the threat intend to carry it out or be capable of doing so. The motive for making the threat is equally irrelevant.”</div>
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So it really doesn’t matter. The intent is the try to intimidate women and make them feel unsafe and that’s fucking wrong. Justin Vacula SHOULD not be brushing this off or offering casual defense of these actions. One nice step would be to say “hey people Knock this illegal shit off”.</div>
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4:15<br />
<i>people say mean things about Justin vacula calling him fat, a loser etc</i></div>
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People should not be fat shaming him etc but this is not an argument against taking threats and bullying online seriously this is just further evidence that we need to try to change internet culture and make it less harmful.</div>
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5:00<br />
<i>talking about problems at conferences lead to people avoiding conferences</i></div>
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This is a bad argument. It’s like saying we shouldn’t talk about murders or the murder rate in our city because it will scare off tourism. Well how do you expect to address the problem if you can’t talk about it? There may be a short term drop in attendance but it will lead to work on solutions that will make our conferences stronger in the long run. Just think of the loss of attendance from people who go to a conference have something bad happen to them and people don’t take it seriously. Are they going to want to go to future conferences, probably not.</div>
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5:42<br />
<i>where’s the evidence</i><br />
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Well here’s a post by Rebecca on some of the abuse she got for example <a href="http://skepchick.org/2011/09/mom-dont-read-this/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://skepchick.org/2011/09/mom-dont-read-this/</a></div>
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here’s an example of harassment at conventions<br />
<a href="http://ashleyfmiller.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/harassment-at-tam9/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://ashleyfmiller.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/harassment-at-tam9/</a></div>
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That’s from a couple minutes googling if you’d like more from me I’d like to start getting paid for the time I spend researching for you.</div>
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6:22<br />
<i>report threats to the police</i></div>
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While I don’t know your situation there are logistical problems reporting anonymous threats to police. This does not mean it is not a problem. I had chairs stolen from my cottage while we were away for several weeks. There seemed little the police could do if I reported the theft so we didn’t. That doesn’t mean the theft didn’t happen, that it wasn’t a problem or that I shouldn’t talk about it cause it might hurt property values around my cottage.</div>
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7:22<br />
<i>Amy shouldn’t be immune to criticism </i><br />
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There’s a difference between criticism and personal attacks.</div>
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7:48<br />
<i>conferences shouldn’t be banning free expression </i><br />
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I at least agree here but conferences should also try to be a welcoming place for all their conference goers. How best to do that is another conversation we can have and a harassment policy would even provide a framework for such a discussion.</div>
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Why are we spending so much time on Amy I think Amy’s role in thunderf00ts video was almost 30 seconds long.</div>
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8:45<br />
<i>the incident with amy is why skepchick/FTB was attacking TAM</i></div>
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No one was attacking TAM over this. People were talking about about the problems of harassment they were experiencing in the community and at conferences. DJ Grothe made a post about how this was hurting TAM and that TAM was good and these were damaging discussions. That’s when the discussion became about TAM in particular and it’s sometimes lousy track record of taking harassment seriously.</div>
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<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/06/15/harassment-policies-campaign-timeline-of-major-events/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/06/15/harassment-policies-campaign-timeline-of-major-events/</a></div>
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There’s the time line go read it full of links.</div>
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9:04<br />
<i>Attacking the conference so you shouldn’t expect a great response</i></div>
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Again no one was mentioning TAM specifically. Just to point out Amy was at the time also volunteering and fundraising to send women to TAM.</div>
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9:30<br />
<i>don’t see how thunderf00t is mocking a natural vulnerability to the point of misrepresenting the reason she was upset.</i></div>
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Yeah no thunderf00t boiled the incident down to Amy see’s shirt makes her upset she cries wants it banned. Leaves out things like, the harassment she’d been receiving, the fundraising she’d been doing for TAM, the reasons she was upset. Here read for yourself <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/07/in-your-face/#comment-223155" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/07/in-your-face/#comment-223155</a></div>
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9:50<br />
<i>I don’t think I would be reduced to tears</i></div>
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Good for you Justin, you know there’s a big nasty social pressure on men not to show emotions especially vulnerable emotions like crying. But you and thunderf00t are both diminishing how upsetting this was to someone cause you wouldn’t cry and that’s something to prod her with instead of</div>
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10:20<br />
<i>its not women exclusively being criticized</i></div>
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Harassment is not criticism. There’s a difference between this post that I’m making going through your video and addressing your point and just unleashing a barrage of hate, slurs and threats at you. Please get that into your head.</div>
Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-23142693881967986022013-01-02T15:12:00.002-08:002013-01-15T19:27:19.370-08:00A response to Thunderf00t's latest video<span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhfG4xi7r3jF1jvwwbF-6OwyUgWjDE9CcaQZ7DLmTegqYCLooOrjeB_5NN-VkV60ZiczXxqk5T1kS9vfJXebH22hUS4n26gC7uelJ0hWe8f4OVi3RaUJ9VwjoGRoy0hEU2K3m1vGJD4aOI/s1600/bunny-soultaker.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhfG4xi7r3jF1jvwwbF-6OwyUgWjDE9CcaQZ7DLmTegqYCLooOrjeB_5NN-VkV60ZiczXxqk5T1kS9vfJXebH22hUS4n26gC7uelJ0hWe8f4OVi3RaUJ9VwjoGRoy0hEU2K3m1vGJD4aOI/s320/bunny-soultaker.jpg" width="271" /></a><span style="background-color: white;">Ok this is a break down and response to thunderf00t's latest video on youtube </span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Why 'feminism' is poisoning atheism</span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKQdJR7F_I">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKQdJR7F_I</a></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Originally posted in the comments section of pharyngula <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/01/the-company-you-keep/#comments">http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/01/the-company-you-keep/#comments</a></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Provided here all together for easy reading and with minor edits. The first 1.5-2 minutes are paraphrases of his comments after about the 2 minute mark I tried to accurately record the speech of everyone instead of paraphrasing. I may go back and fix the first 2 minutes at a later time.</span><br />
<a name='more'></a></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">-------------------------------</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">0:00-0:20<i> </i></span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Shows a list of the people who contributed to SPEAKING OUT AGAINST HATE DIRECTED AT WOMEN saying he’s sickened that they were bullied into this PC appeasement.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">He provides no evidence that they were bullied into making these posts (I know some of them were eager to contribute).</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: white;">Since posting this Michael Payton, Michael De Dora, Michael Nugent and Matt Dillahunty have all come out saying they were in no way coerced. See the comments <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/01/bullied-or-cajoled/">http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/01/bullied-or-cajoled/</a></span><br />
and the links at the end of this post.</div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">0:20-35 </span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">We have Harriet Hall’s T-shit “I feel safe and welcome at TAM” saying like people who find t-shirts like these offensive enough to reduce them to tears.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Does not provide context as to the reasons namely that people saw it as minimizing their concerns and fears. A kind of subtext of I don’t see a problem so what’s wrong with you approach. see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting</a></span></div>
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For Amy's explanation of why this bothered her you can read the comment here</div>
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/07/in-your-face/#comment-223155">http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/07/in-your-face/#comment-223155</a></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">0:35-0:45 </span></span><br />
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Claims of using copyright to stifle free speech</i></span></span><br />
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><i><br /></i></span></span>
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Using someone else's photo without their permission is a copy right violation if they don’t want you to use it they can say so and they are in the right. You can still make your claims without it.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">0:45-1:00 </span></span><br />
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">People who think that fake jewelry and not offending people should be classed as harassment at conventions on par with physical groping.</i></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">“all we’re saying it we want rules that say making fake jewelry and intentionally offending people is not ok nor is grabbing someones ass.”</span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">This does not say that they are on par it does say they are both wrong just like Genocide and shoplifting are not on the same scale but are both wrong. A convention is not the rest of the world and can have more stringent rules (its a private event). For example there’s nothing illegal about wearing a t-shrit with a rape joke on it but the people running a convention don’t have to let you into their event if you’re wearing it. It is after all their event. Similarly jewelry made to imitate that of someone else that personally attacks that person is an attempt to bully them instead of engaging in their position. I have a hard time seeing why a community that prides itself on rational discourse would want to support that.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Ok there’s a break down of the first minute. I’m going to take a break and maybe come back with the second minute of claims later. All quotes are approximate as I really such at transcribing video (hats off to those who can do it better).</span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">1:00-1:25</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Proffessional victims going conference to conference saying the SH was so bad they were putting their lives on the line merely by turning up. (cut to video of rebecca) You can’t trust the cops, you can’t trust the people who hang out at you at these events you can’t trust the leaders of our community to give a damn.</i></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">There is no support for the idea that they are putting their lives on the line turning up but it would hardly be surprising if someone who receives threats from member of a community is at least a little on edge showing up at conventions of that community.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">As to the quote from rebecca, there are plenty of cases of cops ( <a href="http://forcechange.com/6105/nypd-stop-blaming-victims-and-shaming-women/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://forcechange.com/6105/nypd-stop-blaming-victims-and-shaming-women/</a> ), leaders of the community (<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/06/01/the-dj-grothe-quote-that-sticks-in-my-craw/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/06/01/the-dj-grothe-quote-that-sticks-in-my-craw/</a> ) and plenty of commentators (you’ll have to find that one yourself try Greta’s recent post on the Delhi rape victim fighting back) engaged in victim blaming and minimizing remarks.</span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">1:25-1:43 </span></span><br />
<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">SH so bad the skepchicks had to go around in pairs (cue clip of rebecca) So at the conference all the skepchick writers who were there instituted a buddy system were we always traveled together or with a male escort especially when returning to our rooms at night.</i></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">There is only the one line, no citation or any other context as to what else was being said. If you’re receiving threats of sexual or physical abuse and you decide to be proactive about your safety when conventions don’t have SH policies I guess that’s bad? Also amusing given the many ways I’ve seen people try to dismiss claims of harassment of can you prove it at least here you’d have a second witness to the event but I guess that to would be wrong?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">1:43 – 2:00</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">“Even though of course the SH was so bad these poor defensless women might not even have known they were being harassed unless there was a feminist organisation there that could educate them about just what a horrible SH they weren’t even aware of was.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">The idea that one can grow up in an environment and not notice the problems there in and associate them as normal isn’t a terribly new idea. If you go around on the street being accosted by men daily as part of street harassment you can just take it as a given as part of life and not as something sexist that only affects one sex. Just like a new atheist in the states may not realize the problems with starting a town council meeting with a prayer unless someone explains the constitutional law that it breaks.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">2:00-2:12</span></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">clip of PZ rebecca et al on google plus no citation given. PZ startes reading ” “I’ve hung around with atheists and skeptics and I’ve never encountered this problem that being sexism or misogyny. ” his name is rick obviously”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">There’s a subtle cut in the clip (especially if you’re listening) so the video continues tho doesn’t directly follow from the previous. Though if you’re listening to it it does seem to flow rather well together.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">2:12 -2:40</span></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Pz again “I suspect he’s flat chested that’s you know…”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Rebecca then cuts in “you know but it’s also important to remember there are also women in these communities who have never experienced who would say they’ve never experienced sexism. That’s not to say I’m implying they’re lying more that I think there are a lot of things that are part of a misogynist culture (at this point blue text reading “what? a woman hateing culture appear”) that go unnoticed by most women unoticed by me for most of my 20 (white text this time “but somehow the ladies don’t notice it?”)</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">See my previous minute, you can grow up in a culture and not realise the ways it is harming you or is otherwise skewed. Just like you can grow up not noticing all the bunk medicine around you. Homeopathy is just natural herbal remedies right? Education by others who’ve seen through these things is sometimes needed to make you think.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">2:40- 3:04</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">thunderfoot “Those who suggest with a straight face that there is actually an active debate in the secular community at the comment as to whether women are fuck toys and eye candy for privileged white men or are equally colleagues. Yup apparently the debate is taking place in exactly those binary term with no other positions available. You see PZ myers said so”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">3:04-3:34</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">clip of PZ myers once again no citation for the event.</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Right now for instance the internet community is wracked with these paroxysms of arguments over of all things the status of women. We’re trying to decide whether women are eye candy and fuck toys for privileged white men or whether they are colleagues together in this movement. And I would have said some time ago that’s easy that’s settled we know what the answer to that. We’re equal partners in this effort but surprisingly uh that debate is going on on the internet right now.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">He is at least right that there are a variety of positions (though in commenting on evolution v creationism one rarely spells out all the variations for example). Fuck toys and eye candy is a bit hyperbolic but if women honestly are colleagues (a word I may actually have learned how to spell by the time this is over)</span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;">then one should expect that when a group of them start bringing concerns to you that you address them thoughtfully a seriously. Unlike say the first minute of this video where several different events were brushed over with seemingly no attempt on your part to understand why people were bothered by them. If you won’t take their opinions seriously when they raise them then it’s hard to dodge the idea you just want them around to look pretty and back up positions you already hold.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">3:34-4:08</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderfoot again “Look I don’t know who’s bright idea it was to get these guys to speak at critical thinking type conferences. But what he’s saying here is s outrageously detached from reality.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">cue clip of PZ</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">“that debate is going on on the internet right now, I guess misogyny is not the sole prerogative of christian and Islamic fundamentalists there are also some atheist’s who feel this way.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">back to thunderf00t<br />“Its not even a straw man it’s simply bullshit. It’s an outrageous fiction told to conjure up this boogeyman that there’s this great faction of the secular community that argues that women are fuck toys and eye candy for privileged white men.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Outrageously detached from reality, straw man, bullshit and outrageous fiction. Not really, maybe a tiny strawman. The debate is not itself shaped as colleagues vs fuck toys it’s shaped around the kind of standards we use to listen to (particularly) women’s claims of harassment and what often comes down to just dismissing their complaints by setting unreasonably high standards of evidence.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">While I personally think the atheist community is better then (at least some) christian or Islamic communities on misogyny it does a disservice to the issue to pretend that we are above it or that it’s not an issue. see<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/12/30/mission-critical/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/12/30/mission-critical/</a> for an example of the kind of passive sexism in the community. It’s not throwing acid in women’s faces or letting women die of a miscarriage but that would be a really low bar to set for our community. It’s still a problem and when people bring it up we need to work to address it not dismiss it with a 10 minute youtube video full of clips of events with none of the context to the events.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">4:09-4:15</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t “Maybe there is the tiny fraction who think women are eye candy and fuck toys for privileged white men.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Cue a photo from the Rise of Atheism of 2 women one kissing each side of PZ’s face.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Because a staged photo is I guess proof that PZ thinks all women are fuck toys? Oddly enough one can respect women as people and still take staged photographs.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">4:16- 4:44</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t “Well now thanks to scare tactics and boogeymen that these toxic parasites have conjured up, you now have conferences with harassment policies that look like this.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Photo of the Skepticon 5 Harassment Policy <a href="http://www.skepticon.org/policy/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://www.skepticon.org/policy/</a> His photo to have been taken from a different iteration of the website but both have updated Oct 1, 2012 at the top so the policy should be the same.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderfoot then reads off from the policy “Additionally, exhibitors in the expo hall, sponsor or vendor booths, or similar activities are also subject to the anti-harassment policy. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">For those unaware the purpose of this passage taken from a geek conference policy was primarily against booth babes etc. There is nothing necessarily wrong with using pretty women to try to sell your service but the event has the right to make rules that help set the tone of the event.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">4:44-5:06</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t “What you mean creating a sexualized enviroment like this?”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Cue the clip from skepticon 3 (its not attributed in the video but that’s where it’s from).</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">“If you the hadn then I would have to submit and have sex with you. (/cut) If you win I’ll give me hotel number. (/cut) We’ll do the sex thing later. (/cut) Ok go back to your seat. No take the card’s with you I gotta call you back for the sex part later.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderfoot has written on that clip: If anyone else did this they would be crucified for their sexually inappropriate behavior by the PC police. and I gotta call you back for the sex part later.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I guess the I gotta call you back for the sex part later was a big sticking point for him (and others). No mention of course that the sex part later was in fact a practical example using cards of how genes are mixed and rearranged during sex. These quotes are of course all provided without the context and you can go read about the whole thing and a much larger discussion of the topic on this post from a 3 weeks back.<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/13/oh-no-ive-been-exposed/">http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/13/oh-no-ive-been-exposed/</a></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ch1XFqmGeM" rel="nofollow" style="background-color: white; color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ch1XFqmGeM</a><br />
<span style="background-color: white;">There’s a link to the skepticon 3 talk and the relevant clips are taken from near the beginning of the talk.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">There is a difference between a sexualized environment like a strip club and a talk on genetics and evolution that mention sex .</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">5:07 -5:22</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t “Or maybe like this”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Cue a photo of Rebecca opening her top a bit and a guy posed to put money into her cleavage in what looks like a bar.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">“Yeah that’s right the harassment policy is now venturing into telling people what they can and cannot wear at conferences. Sorry girls dresses, jewelry, makeup that’s creating a sexualized environment that promote gender stereotypes.”</i><span style="background-color: white;"><i></i></span></div>
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<i style="background-color: white; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">First lets go back to the conference policy “Additionally, exhibitors in the expo hall, sponsor or vendor booths, or similar activities are also subject to the anti-harassment policy. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: white; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Rebecca is not at the expo hall or a booth and her outfit in no way mimics the kind of outfits this part of the policy is against like say the sexy school girl look of these booth babes.<a href="http://oyster.ignimgs.com/ve3d/images/05/31/53174_e3-2009-booth-babes-assemble-20090603040117413_normal.jpg" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://oyster.ignimgs.com/ve3d/images/05/31/53174_e3-2009-booth-babes-assemble-20090603040117413_normal.jpg</a></i></div>
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<i style="background-color: white; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">There is a difference between not wearing a dress, jewelry and make up and wearing a highly sexualized costume. This is not about telling people particularly the attendees what to wear so much as it is about trying to set a non sexualized tone for the conference. If attendees want to be more sexualized that is different then the event itself promoting a highly sexualized environment. This point has been explained several times but it just doesn’t seem to sink in.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><i>5:22</i></span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Cue a Photo of a (slightly warped?) PZ giving I think a thumbs up/ (it’s obscured by text). With the wording Patriarchy at the top and “When you no longer believe in god but still want to have something invisible, all powerful and unverifiable to believe in.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">This perpetuates the idea that patriarchy is some sort of grand conspiracy and not a description of our cultures tendency to prop up and support men over women (not to mention other minorities). This could in fact be proven wrong. For example doing studies that look at employment biases<a href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/</a></span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;">Or say not finding a backlogs of rape kits <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_kit#In_the_United_States" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_kit#In_the_United_States</a></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Similarly to evolution it’s not that the patriarchy can’t be disproven it’s that there its lots of evidence that our culture discriminates (not necessarily consciously) against women. I’m sure the better read commentators could provide more discussion of this topic then I can.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">5:24- 5:38</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t: “Gender punishers and sister traitors diminishing and minimizing the experiences their fellow women have suffered at the hands of the patriarchy. I think are the words that those people who would want to protect you from this harassment that you’re not even aware of would use.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Please go see my break down of part one for talk on diminishing and minimizing. I also can’t recall the last time I saw the phrases gender punishers and sister traitors used by a feminist towards other women. Probably not the words the women on FTB or Skepchick would use.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">5:38- 6:04</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">TF again ” Seriously, who would pay money to go to a convention like this, the travel costs, the time away from your job, the hotel costs, the conference costs, simply to be judged by some highly strung and obseenly hypocritical professional victims. ”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Cue picture of PZ being kissed again with caption “no, it’s only misogyny when you do it!” and dissolving into the photo of rebecca and the money in her top.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">“As to whether their clothes constitute creating a sexualized environment and there for fall under the harassment policy.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Once again it wouldn’t fall under the policy. You have to know this you read us the relevant part of the policy shortly after 4:16 mark. Saying something would fall under a policy it obviously doesn’t fall under will not make it so. Abysmal reading comprehension or lying those seem to be the choices.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">As has been pointed out the HP is to protect people against situations and actions they do not want like say if I just walked over and kissed PZ or stuck money down Rebecca’s top.It’s at the very least presumptuous to think that they would appreciate these actions. It is not the job of the policy to stop people from saying hey can we take a photo of me and my friend kissing you and everyone agreeing on it. Again I’ve seen this point hammered over and over again but to no avail.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Out of curiosity as I’m currently unemployed what are the wages and hours of a profesional victim and who do I send my resume to? Yes I know it was snarky but I did it anyway this video is grating on my patience.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">6:02-6:04</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">TF: But the poisoning doesn’t end there.</i><br />
<span style="background-color: white;">Unfortunately. I still have 4 minutes to go V.V Okay trying to put the snark away again.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">6:05-6:14</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">TF : “These spanners (? maybe spammers?) actually want to redifine what words mean. You know like atheism used to mean just not accepting there was a god or gods.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Actually the earliest usage that I recall was of christians for not believing in the roman gods. One of the most popular definitions you see in dictionaries remains a denial of gods existence or knowledge that no gods exist.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">6:15-6:35</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">TF: Hooo. Now it means this.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Cue up a video of PZ at a conference I can’t make out the symbol at the back over the glare. Again no citation.<br />Pz” And when we use Science answers problems it resolves questions for us. We should do more of that I think. So you know I propose this. “Atheism is the radical notion that we should live our lives by the principles of reason and evidence that is by science.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I’m sure long time readers are shocked to see that PZ isn’t fond of the dictionary definition of atheism and wants atheists to strive to be more. See for example this piece for his full position<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/02/01/why-are-you-an-atheist/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/02/01/why-are-you-an-atheist/</a></span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;">Definitions change all the time and while it is nice to have a label for people who don’t believe in god(s) I don’t see a problem wanting atheists to be more then that definition (I in fact support such efforts).</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">6:36-6:47</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">The PZ’s slide changes to “feminism is the radical notion that women are people” while Tunderf00t talks over what ever PZ is saying.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">TF: “A phrase in the same radical notion language that constitutes the false strawman dichotomy that lies at the heart of his feminist dogma.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">This is not a false strawman dichotomy. While you are free not to like the label the most basic definition of feminism is that women are deserving of being treated as men or more simply that women are people. There are dozens of different converging diverging groups/opinions in feminism but that is the basic premise. Just like to use Thunderf00ts own definitions there are Raelians, Scientologists, non theistic buddhists, dictionary atheists, humanists and atheist+ all under his definition of atheists. The fact that you have a particular set of views under that label does not mean that the label doesn’t apply to you. I’m actually surprised he practically refuted his own point.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I’m also not sure I’ve ever gotten a clear explanation of what constitutes feminist dogma. Maybe It’s like that atheist dogma I also hear so much about.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">6:48-7:50</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #cfe2f3;">Thunderfoot “Let muppets like this have their way and they wouldn’t merely stop with trying to control what you wear they would extend their right to prohibit you from saying things people might find offensive.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Change to google+ again and Esteleth if you want to see your part it starts at 7:00.</i></div>
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<i style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Estheleth: “Yes somthing along those lines and that’s actually very true and applies to things like language I could say all manner of words you know I have the right to do that, I have the freedom of speech but my right to do that ends the second that someone who is affected by those words hears me.”</span></i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Cut to lisa Simpson<br />“I’m not sure brocman’s out of the woods yet there are a lot of religious watchdog groups out there keeping the world safe from the horror of free expression”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">While it would depend on the case there are a lot of instances where your ability to say something has limits. Libel, threats, criminal harassment there are a number of areas where in fact we recognise a limit on your speech because it harms others. It’s frankly quite stupid to try to brush it all off as free expression as if all offensive speech is the same. There’s a big divide between I someone getting offended you don’t have the same opinion as them and someone getting bothered that you threatened to physically abuse them for instance. I’d have thought that someone so found of talking of false dichotomies would recognize that but obviously he hasn’t examined his own ideas.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">7:50 -8:00</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t : ” For my part I watched with dispair as these ultaPC professional victims have slowly dripped poison into what used to be a vibrant and exciting conference scene such that I really want nothing to do with them.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Photo of a comment by Matt Dillahunty (face book I assume?)</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Which reads: “Soon, I’ll be posting something non-drama..but to make things easier, I have a yes/no question. If you answer is YES, please post a response. If your answer is NO, do not post a reply:</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Do you think that elevatorgate was just an overreaction to a request for coffee?</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Again, only post if your answer is “yes”. Anything other than yes…steer clear. Mass blocking…incoming.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I guess having a blog, and a call in show isn’t enough free speech now people need to be able to post their views to your personal facebook page? </span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;">Matt has since covered this in greater detail in his response to thunderf00t see his video linked at the bottom of this post.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">8:00-8:18</span></div>
<i><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: #d0e0e3; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Thunderfoot: Hell I’ve been pining back to the happy days when I actually knew who none of these people were. Look let me make this simple I just got back from an experiment where I was surrounded EVERYWHERE by sane, capable, rational, able, capable and intelligent people.</span></span></i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Well I’ve been pining back for the days when I respected you or never knew you existed either. I’m going to be charitable and assume you didn't mean to disparage people with mental illness or physical disabilities with sane and able. Although I find capable amusing given you were incapable to understand the meaning of 2 god damn sentences from a harassment policy.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">8:18-8:40</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">thunderfoot: “And then you come back to the secular community where you have people like Melody Hensley. That’s the executive director of the center for inquiry DC going creationist style ban happy on people who havn’t even mentioned her name yet.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Photos of what are probably tweets from 28Nov 12</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; line-height: 24px;">I blocked everyone but 2 ppl that follow the Elevatorgate account & I lost 20 </span><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">followers</span><span style="font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; line-height: 24px;"> Why would you follow me & someone that harasses me?</span></span></i></div>
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<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">@tweek75 Or they may want to keep tabs on me and I’m not taking that chance.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;"><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">@emilyhasbrooks @bethpresswood Don’t want to take a chance. Better to lose some followers than risk having creepy people </span></span><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: arial;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;">following</span></span><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><span style="line-height: 18px;"> me.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Also one from Ian Cromwell</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">@MelodyHensley – I’m not sure what deleting people accomplishes in that case. They can still see your tweets, even if blocked.</span></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">thunderf00t: “because they might say something bad about her someday. “</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Because I guess we are all obliged to let people follow us on our personal twitter accounts? Frankly so what. Ian even points out they can still read her tweets. If I don’t want people following me, especially if they’re hanging around someone that’s harassing me, there’s no reason I have to let them. Just like there’s no reason why I have to try to be even handed and curb my language in this post that’s just how I write most of my posts. Your twitter account you make the rules. Someone else’s twitter account they make the rules that’s how it works.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">8:40</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">And starting flagging compains against videos critical of her.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Picture of Probably her face book page it reads:</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Melody Hensley</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Hi friends! I would appreciate if *everyone* of you would flag this video as “bullying”. You have to sign into youtube. If you don’t have a youtube account, they are super easy to create. this means a lot tome. I’m tired of the constant online harassment and bullying. This is too much.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">and a link to another video melodramatic melody by whooly bumblebee. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ob0AKW8Bs" rel="nofollow" style="color: #1772af; text-decoration: initial;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ob0AKW8Bs</a> there’s a mirrored version.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">I’m not spending my night going through another video but we get such thorough criticisms as ” every rational person knows feminism doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny” “Shes a fan of rebecca watson so she’s as much a skeptic as a flat earther.” Calls her feminism misandry. Starts describing her tactics by beginning by putting on pink military panties and matching combat boots. Calling her a twat. Calling her a professional victim. In a tissy.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Basically a whole bunch of harassment and personal attacks instead of actually trying to address her concerns or positions. Once again we see that to the rational champions of free speech bullying, minimizing and harassing someone is criticism. Colour me unimpressed.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">8:40-9:00</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t: “Oh and would you believe it she labels herself as a feminist too. It’s just sickening to see someone from the center from inquiry embrace with such relish these silencing tactics which we’ve seen creationists use here on youtube for years. To protect their bullshit arguements from criticism.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Oddly enough a creationist can do something and it doesn’t make it bad. For example there’s probably a creationist right now eating take out chinese. Again there’s a difference between to protect their arguments from criticism and to take actions against someone who’s verbally harassing them. A video on Ken Ham’s creationism is different then a video on Ken Ham’s hair cut.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">It also requires you to make a point instead of just claiming that every as everyone knows you’re right. I wish it wasn’t so I mean it would make this easier. Everyone knows I’m right and this video is a waste of time case closed. But no we still have 1 more minute to get through.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">9:00-9:09</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t: “I mean really an executive director from the center of iquiry running a flagging campaign. I mean shit these people would give scientology a run for their money.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">So apparently trying to take action against a video that is over 50% attacks on you and not your views is on the same ball park to running a multinational church the hires out private investigators, litigators to harass people at their places of work and their familly. I just don’t buy it.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">9:09-9:18</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderfoot: “Thankfully these PC bullies really can’t get much purchase on the open forum of free speech. That is on youtube these thin skinned whiners are an utter non event.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I agree youtube does nothing to censor the vapid bullying and harassment of its users who cling to the banner of free speech.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">9:18-9:43</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Clip of PZ unsourced possibly from eschaton<br />“you know I don’t have a major presence on youtube”.</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Thunderf00t: “They’re like creationists their views can’t compete on an open and fair playing field and they know it. Stating things like:</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">clip of PZ</i><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">“the comments on youtube are a cesspit they really are.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t “Indeed after resoritng to these creationist tactics of disableing ratings and comments.”</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Oddly enough youtube is not the sum total be all end all of free speech. I watch video reviews of science fiction shows and they are on blip not youtube. Is that because they can’t compete in the open source of ideas? No it’s cause Viacom was putting up too much of a stink of using their footage and it was easier to move elsewhere. Youtube is not a level playing field nor is it the be all and end all of free speech no matter how many times you say so.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I’ll point out that pz’s poll bombings are infamous so I’m not surprised he doesn’t think well of the scores on youtube. Although comments are disabled they are provided a link to pharyngula where it can be discussed there is also an unmoderated post on the blog at all times the Thunderdome if you really want to enjoy your free speech without any interfering.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">9:43-9:50</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t: “Get a grip. You do not have to appease the request of every PC whiner.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Picture of Harriet Hall’s safe and welcome shirt again. Subtitled: “OMG A SMILEY FACE! THE MISOGYNISTIC MONSTER! Quick someone call the ‘I’m offended’ skepchick police and get Amy Roth a box of kleenex.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Again I’ll direct you to part 1 for why people were hurt by the t-shirt.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">9:50-10:04</span><br />
<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Thunderf00t: “The secular commuity can achieve great things but it will never achieve anything while it has poison like this dripped into it’s heart.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3; color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Photo of women protesting captioned “RADICAL FEMINISM It’s no longer about the legitimacy of women’s original complaints, but the inherent injustice of their proposed solutions.”</i></div>
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<i style="background-color: #d0e0e3;">Please forward this video to leaders of secular groups who you think need to hear this message. and a request to mirror because of feminists habbit of false flagging campaigns.</i></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Well we just have to disagree with what’s poisoning the secular community. I’m also confused by the caption as to whether your implying radical feminists are upset by the solutions they proposed or if you’re upset by the solutions they proposed or what your exact problem with radical feminism is.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">I’m not sure who I would send a badly argued, cherry picked, video that frequently missed the points of those it argues against but also lumps harassment and criticism into the same boat. Why would I send any one a video where you spend a chunk of it arguing over your misreading of 2 sentences. Why would they think this is convincing or even a laudable example of reasoned argument. I just spent far too much time on it but I hope everyone found it useful. I’m MichaelD I just wasted half my day ripping into this stupidity so you don’t have to!</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Since I wrote this several other people have added their voices here is a collection.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Matt Dillahunty</span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nyjW36Ri45Q">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nyjW36Ri45Q</a></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Will on skepchick</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><a href="http://skepchick.org/2013/01/thats-not-bullying/">http://skepchick.org/2013/01/thats-not-bullying/</a></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Ophelia Benson</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/01/bullied-or-cajoled/">http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/01/bullied-or-cajoled/</a></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;">Michael Nugent</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #2c2b2b; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 14px; line-height: 24px;"><a href="http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/01/01/why-it-is-still-important-to-speak-out-against-hate-directed-at-women/">http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/01/01/why-it-is-still-important-to-speak-out-against-hate-directed-at-women/</a></span></span></div>
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Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-53301778471414292452012-03-20T13:50:00.000-07:002012-03-20T13:50:56.828-07:00Why skyrim feels smallThis has been festering in my brain for a while now but for all their attempts at feeling big Bethesda's game worlds always feel small. With skyrim I think I've finally hit on why that is. The cities are only a few city blocks there are only a few dozen people in living in them and the fields and farms never seem large enough to feed what people there are.<br />
<br />
The final sign that spelled it out to me was when I walked into Rorikstead for the first time. To set this up in the games opening a fellow prisoner says he's from Rorikstead. Turns out when you get there Rorikstead is comprised of 4 buildings and 9 people. This was the final straw that really broke the immersion for me. The place seemed hardly worth being on a map as a way station let alone the town people treat it as. Since then the whole world seems bit hollow. As lovely as the mountains, forests and wilderness are I can never get over the fact that the world seems both light on the number of people and the means to feed them.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-283426482247016032012-03-20T12:54:00.003-07:002012-03-20T12:55:03.838-07:00An open letter to my MP<div class="MsoNormal">Hello ,</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">As one of your constituents, I received a one of your pamphlets and tax guides today. You make a significant point on your goal to ensure that Canadian children are safe. While protecting them from sex offenders is important, what is being done to protect them from our national debt?</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">According to debtclock.ca $581.7 billion of which I am proportionally responsible for ~$17,000. This proportion will certainly rise as our population continues to age. As a young adult who's thinking of starting a family in a few years I'm becoming more concerned with the burden this will place on me as well as my children. So, what your and/or your government's plan is to address this growing issue.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">To be frank, I'm worried to see an emphasis on tax cuts, a loss of revenue for the government, and the potentially costly crime omnibus bill. I'm interested in your view on how we will reconcile these actions with the need to lower our debt before it becomes as serious as it is in Europe. Is there a plan or are these short sighted goals? </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">Please consider this issue as we go forward.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">sincerely your constituent,</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div>Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-88690237584779655132012-03-14T18:31:00.000-07:002012-03-14T18:31:48.991-07:00happy pi dayHere I am day's almost over and its pointed out to me that its pi day! Alas another pi day come and gone. At least there's pie this time ^.^<br />
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*enjoys a nice slice of apple pie*Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6019209035001389412.post-31891500220804630732012-03-14T18:27:00.001-07:002012-03-14T18:28:49.309-07:00Rapeing the pretty girl you want to marry not just for biblical times anymoreYes that title sounds really awful but guess what this story is really horrible too so strap in.<br />
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*trigger warning*<br />
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So for those of you who haven't gone through the bible and looking at all the really awful morality there in there's a lovely little law if you rape an unbetrothed virgin the punishment is marriage(deuteronomy 22:28-29). If you're wondering where the punishment is there's also a 50 shekle fine and you can't ever divorce her. Still that's pretty light considering you now have your own little sex slave/maid.<br />
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Now as horrible as that is (I hope no one needs me to explain what's wrong with that) that was the old testament years ago no one actually does this anymore right? Wrong.<br />
<a href="http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1145994--rape-victim-forced-to-marry-attacker-commits-suicide-in-morocco">http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1145994--rape-victim-forced-to-marry-attacker-commits-suicide-in-morocco</a><br />
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I honestly don't know what to add to this. This is right up there as some of the worst justice I've seen and it just boggles my mind that people think that this was a good idea. This is just so sad I just don't know what to say.Harkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12902884873211360552noreply@blogger.com0